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EU sends Apple first DMA interoperability instructions for apps and devices

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Re: EU sends Apple first DMA interoperability instructions for apps and devices

#71

Post by tpmoney »

ChocolateGod wrote: post #3

As cool how unified the Apple ecosystem is, I do think the EU is right that it's extremely unfair for Apple to give its own smartwatches access to the phone that other smartwatches have zero chance of getting access to.

I feel like it would be easier to believe that Apple locking down access to things is the problem if anything at all comparable to their experiences existed outside. Yet whenever this discussion comes up, the answer to “why not just use Android’s ecosystem” largely seems to be that no such similar experience exists for Android. But why would that be the case if this was about Apple locking stuff down? Surely if a lack of open phone OS and feature access was the problem, we’d see a rich ecosystem of integrations that exist on Android devices that are just impossible to achieve on iOS right?

Don’t get me wrong, I would love to see a comprehensive and more open integration ecosystem for non-Apple devices, if only to encourage Apple to keep building. But it doesn’t exist now, why would I expect it to exist if Apple is also open?

Re: EU sends Apple first DMA interoperability instructions for apps and devices

#72

Post by j_maffe »

WhyNotHugo wrote: post #33
Etheryte wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sounds highly unlikely, as it would drastically hurt the sales of adjacent devices and accessories. In my opinion, the most likely outcome is the Apple regular, where they release docs, but the docs are so bad that they're practically unworkable.

It might hurt short term sales, but it helps paint a picture of “evil EU won’t let us sell you the latest features”. I.e.: propaganda fuel.

If you're expecting a significant portion of EU citizens would take a stance with Apple instead of the EU, you'd be wrong.

Re: EU sends Apple first DMA interoperability instructions for apps and devices

#73

Post by lotsofpulp »

pjc50 wrote: post #66
twoodfin wrote: post #2

I expect Apple will react to this by scaling down the sophistication and breadth of features they make available to EU users. That most of these capabilities exist at all reflects Apple’s belief that they’re a way to differentiate their (closed) ecosystem through vertical integration. If the EU takes that away, Apple’s motivation to invest in these areas for EU customers goes away, too.

Apple is, or has been, an EU company for tax purposes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple%27s_EU_tax_dispute

Companies have always been a “ company”.

If you have a business, every new jurisdiction you do business in requires you to register as a business and comply with their tax/labor laws.

Re: EU sends Apple first DMA interoperability instructions for apps and devices

#74

Post by j_maffe »

intrasight wrote: post #44
zoobab wrote: post #31

DMA does not provide any means to run Linux on Apple devices. I don't want their shitty OS, but I like their hardware. Unfortunately, the law makers prefer to cement oligopolies (Android-iPhone), instead of installing fines for not documentating how their hardware works.

Regulating the requirement that Apple support Linux on Macs makes no sense. What does make sense - to me anyway - is for Apple to embrace Linux because they'd sell a lot more Macs. I assume there are many thousands of developers like me that detest macOS and won't even consider a Mac. But like you said, Apple is making some amazing hardware these days. I would buy a Mac if Linux was well supported. Apple did just fin…

> I assume there are many thousands of developers like me that detest macOS

Out of millions of buyers. Developers are almost an irrelevant demography to consider for such a fundamental change.

Re: EU sends Apple first DMA interoperability instructions for apps and devices

#75

Post by crote »

WhyNotHugo wrote: post #33
Etheryte wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sounds highly unlikely, as it would drastically hurt the sales of adjacent devices and accessories. In my opinion, the most likely outcome is the Apple regular, where they release docs, but the docs are so bad that they're practically unworkable.

It might hurt short term sales, but it helps paint a picture of “evil EU won’t let us sell you the latest features”. I.e.: propaganda fuel.

How is that supposed to work?

Apple doesn't have the market share it has in the US - it's at 33% in the EU compared to 57% in the US. Sure, they are popular, but they are still just another phone brand. They simply don't have enough hardcore fans to make a huge impact on a political level.

The EU doesn't have the same kind of large-scale quasi-religious "all government bad" movement seen in the US. People may be skeptical about some details of some government regulation, but in general it is understood that consumer protection regulation actually protects the consumer. Calling the EU evil for this isn't going to work.

Due to Trump's recent political movements there is a huge anti-US sentiment, especially around US tech companies. We're seeing near-unanimous support for governments exploring ways of getting rid of Microsoft and Amazon, and even tech-illiterate Boomers are asking me if I switched to Signal yet. (For context, WhatsApp is universally adopted here - even my 95-year-old grandma is on it!) People aren't going to trust Apple, simply because it is American.

So no, I don't think Apple will be able to successfully paint a picture like that. They could try, but they would just be made fun of in late-night talkshows.

Re: EU sends Apple first DMA interoperability instructions for apps and devices

#76

Post by zoobab »

pjc50 wrote: post #66
twoodfin wrote: post #2

I expect Apple will react to this by scaling down the sophistication and breadth of features they make available to EU users. That most of these capabilities exist at all reflects Apple’s belief that they’re a way to differentiate their (closed) ecosystem through vertical integration. If the EU takes that away, Apple’s motivation to invest in these areas for EU customers goes away, too.

Apple is, or has been, an EU company for tax purposes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple%27s_EU_tax_dispute

Make a subsidiary in Ireland, Apple paid 0% taxes by transforming every imposable EUR as a patent licence, imposed in Ireland. Then they bought US treasure bonds, where the yearly interests amounted to 50USD/american citizen.

They stole from european and american tax payers.

Re: EU sends Apple first DMA interoperability instructions for apps and devices

#77

Post by walterbell »

dividedbyzero wrote: post #64
walterbell wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Revamped AI is delayed to 2027 anyway.

Lets see how that'll go when the competition starts offering really polished LLM assistants on their devices and people see their friends use them on their 400 Euro Androids and all they get on their 1700 Euro iPhone is Siri from 2011.

EU can mandate that Apple open up more interfaces for 3rd party LLM assistants to run locally,

Re: EU sends Apple first DMA interoperability instructions for apps and devices

#78

Post by elric »

kirstenbirgit wrote: post #27

EU forgets that this kind of overzealous, micromanaging intervention only reduces incentives to innovate new features and products. If the EU forces companies with a competitive edge (better software, in this case) to make it available to their competitors, what’s the point? I can make my own decisions about which platforms and software to use, thank you very much. I don’t need or want EU to force companies to build…

What do you mean "what's the point"? Before Apple got to the point of being subject to this particular attempt at regulation, it amassed billions in revenue and reached a 3+trillion dollar valuation.

Very few startups (innovative or otherwise) will ever come close to that. Only a handful of companies globally are subject to these regulations.

Re: EU sends Apple first DMA interoperability instructions for apps and devices

#79

Post by xvokcarts »

FeepingCreature wrote: post #45
xvokcarts wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Develop stuff the way we want, or lose sales" I think the wants (of the EU buyers) are far less homogeneous than the group of open integration activists make it look like, so there's no "we". We hear the opinions of the vocal ones and based on those voices regulation is enacted, but nothing changes for the silent majority. However, a lot of people in the EU may start caring if they can no longer buy what they want…

EU buyer here, I am extremely hype for forced interop and think it almost justifies the existence of the EU on its own. Sure, most people don't care. That's the case for every regulation - policy is made by activists. Better than by corporations any day.

>EU buyer here, I am extremely hype for forced interop and think it almost justifies the existence of the EU on its own.

That was my point. There is no "we".

>That's the case for every regulation - policy is made by activists.

Maybe, but when regulation made by activists starts touching the lives of people that don't care about the thing activists want, they may not like the idea of activists deciding for them. So far all the companies regulated by EU have accepted the regulation - we don't know how most people will react if suddenly something they want is not available to them because of a minority that think their expertise is above their wants.

Re: EU sends Apple first DMA interoperability instructions for apps and devices

#80

Post by JKCalhoun »

ChocolateGod wrote: post #3

As cool how unified the Apple ecosystem is, I do think the EU is right that it's extremely unfair for Apple to give its own smartwatches access to the phone that other smartwatches have zero chance of getting access to.

I play an Apple apologist online (sometimes).

Most here would agree that a public API is a liability regardless. Anything you can keep private (SPI) you should.

Opening up an API that has all manner of hooks into your Apple device is going to be (obviously, I think) one of the most challenging of API to expose. While a 3rd party watch might needs these API, a whole lot of n'r-do-wells (looking at you, Meta) will likely figure out a way to exploit it in their apps.

It's a can of worms or a Pandora's Box if you will. If Apple is forced to expose these API, but only after kicking and screaming, I would not be surprised.

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