Would that be possible in the US? Could Havard annull a degree retrospectively e.g. due to pressure from donors or the president ?
You can't even have US-political posts on HN (like you can have Turkish one here) so it probably would be possible.
Turkish university annuls Erdogan rival's degree, preventing run for president
351–360 of 466 posts
Re: Turkish university annuls Erdogan rival's degree, preventing run for president
#352Note that two of the other popular opposition parties’ leaders are in the prison right now. Imamoglu is the candidate for the main opposition party (CHP, Social Democrats) and is leading in the polls. There are multiple investigations for Imamoglu as well. So imprisonment or a political ban is still on the table. This was just a low-key attempt to disqualify him without further ado.
Update: He is detained. That was quicker than I expected.
on terrorism charges(to give more context on the audacity of the attempt)
Re: Turkish university annuls Erdogan rival's degree, preventing run for president
#353Earlier quoted context omitted.
Before the 2000s, depending on how overtly conservative you were and who was in govenenent (coups, counter-coups, and fits of "democracy" happened every couple years), you might not have been allowed to attend at all. An entire generation of women from conservative backgrounds couldn't attend university in Turkiye until the 2000s because of the hijab ban. Unsurprisingly, once conservative Turkish politicians like Erd…
> An entire generation of women from conservative backgrounds couldn't attend university in Turkiye until the 2000s because of the hijab ban. This should have been countered by "forcing" education for everyone. For university, you could do special high subsidies that enable the woman to break from their families. It'll be painful for a couple generations but it does work.
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Re: Turkish university annuls Erdogan rival's degree, preventing run for president
#354To add insult to injury, it could be the case that Erdogan's degree is fake [1] (I don't know of a single Turkish person NOT voting for him that thinks that his degree is authentic) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recep_Tayyip_Erdo%C4%9Fan_univ...
From a brief reading of the wikipedia article you linked, I'm under impression that the accusations are baseless (given that there are - supposedly - witnesses and his former classmates that confirm his version, and apparently no whistleblowers that present a proof otherwise). The sources are in Turkish so I didn't consult them[1]. Is the article biased or omits some important context? Since you believe the degree is…
I think you are confusing Erdogan with Imamoglu. Imamoglu has photographs, classmates, there is no doubt that he attended college. His diploma was anulled because he transferred initially from a different college. He spent 4 years at the Istanbul uni, attended classes, passed the exams, there is no doubt in that.
On the other hand, Erdogan does not have a single photograph during his university years, no classmates to back his story. He started a two year degree, but there is no evidence he attended a four year program. A public notary issued a same as original certification on a disputed document. The original diploma of erdogan cannot be found. Looking at the date of the diploma, the university faculty didn't even exist yet.
Re: Turkish university annuls Erdogan rival's degree, preventing run for president
#355Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Having someone born in the country they are looking to lead seems silly to you? Whether it is silly or not, I'm not sure, but it certainly doesn't seem very democratic. IMO Arnold Schwarzenegger, to pick a random foreign born politician, should be able to stand for President. People can choose not to vote for him if they've bothered by him being foreign born. FWIW, in Australia, no member of Federal Parliament (so…
I think Arnie is a great example, especially because he was a governor for two terms for one of the richest and most populous states, California. If he was allowed to run for president, he would be an excellent candidate. As a modern compromise, I think the US should allow people who moved to the US before a certain again (maybe 10 or 12) or have lived in the US for 20+ years. If you want to go a little further, you…
> As a modern compromise, I think the US should allow people [...]
Your compromise would probably work well as a compromise, but honestly, it feels a bit superfluous to have all those restrictions, when you have voters who can apply any criterion they like anyway.
Voters can already resolve by themselves to vote only for people who are native born, or who are of a certain age, or under a certain age, or who like the right football team, or have the right haircolour.
Re: Turkish university annuls Erdogan rival's degree, preventing run for president
#356Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Having someone born in the country they are looking to lead seems silly to you? Whether it is silly or not, I'm not sure, but it certainly doesn't seem very democratic. IMO Arnold Schwarzenegger, to pick a random foreign born politician, should be able to stand for President. People can choose not to vote for him if they've bothered by him being foreign born. FWIW, in Australia, no member of Federal Parliament (so…
> IMO Arnold Schwarzenegger, to pick a random foreign born politician, should be able to stand for President. The reservoir of potential candidates is vast. The risk this mitigates seems important enough to give up on additional potential candidates. It's not like other countries aren't protective. Have you looked at trying to even just immigrate to Japan? Regardless of how you feel, a country should be able to set i…
> Regardless of how you feel, a country should be able to set its own policies.
And in a democracy that means that voters should be able to set the policies.
Voters can already resolve by themselves to vote only for people who are native born, or who are of a certain age, or under a certain age, or who like the right football team, or have the right haircolour.
We don't need to further restrict who voters can and can not vote for.
Unless you don't trust voters. But then, why have a democracy in the first place?
Re: Turkish university annuls Erdogan rival's degree, preventing run for president
#357Earlier quoted context omitted.
Born in the country lessens the likelihood that you are beholden to more than one master. Born in another country then naturalized still does not rule out sleeper agent situations. Seems pretty obvious to me. I'm one that questions the whole pledge of allegiance forced to be recited by children that have no wherewithal to understand what allegiance even means or the ramifications of that pledge. Yet, I'm okay with bo…
The UK's recent prime minister Boris Johnson was born in the US two British parents who happened to be studying in Manhatten at the time. They all moved back here a few months later. The idea that he could be some sort of US sleeper agent is hilarious, though.
Well, formally the Prime Minister is just some random bloke appointed by king to help him run the country. The PM doesn't even need to be a member of parliament!
Now the king, that guy can't even be catholic! And until recently, couldn't even be female with living brothers.
Re: Turkish university annuls Erdogan rival's degree, preventing run for president
#358Earlier quoted context omitted.
By that argument, we should ban everyone whose Social Security number is even from running. That would prevent about 50% of psychos from running. I say, let them all run, and let the voters sort it out. At least, if you believe in democracy.
Although I agree on the silliness of the citizenship-at-birth rule, a maximalist approach to democracy can be very dangerous. The most unstable democracies of the past century were, often, the most democratic ones - Weimar, various French republics, etc. The democratic paradox is real, and finding ways to minimize its worst outcomes can be legitimate.
I agree that this is a valid concern. However, we should then carefully review which restrictions actually help with stability and which restrictions are a nuisance.
It's instructive to compare the constitution of the Federal Republic of Germany with the Weimar Republic. For example, while modern Germany still uses proportional representation, you need 5% of the votes to get any seats at all. (I'm simplifying a bit.) And you can no longer have a pure 'vote of no confidence' in parliament to bring down the government, you need to simultaneously put a new one in power, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructive_vote_of_no_confid...
As for the US president: I think the requirement for a minimum age and for citizenship are fair enough, because these are fairly easy to verify once and for all. But I think that the requirement for citizenship at birth is, if anything, bad for stability: remember the birthers?
Now imagine that in Obama's 6th year in office, some random birther had actually found some reasonably compelling evidence (but not compelling enough to make even Obama supporters agree). Can you imagine the chaos?
Re: Turkish university annuls Erdogan rival's degree, preventing run for president
#359Earlier quoted context omitted.
Sadly, yes. I'm not sure what it will take to make people realize that a "strong man" is not the answer.
I doubt, but wonder if it's a generational thing, like would the twenty somethings be into strongmen when they're the majority of voters? I used to think the younger generation were a bit different but I've seen them pretty much obsess over MAGA, Joe Rogan et al. So more of the same I guess?
Essentially, young people want change, old people want stability. The right in the US has been advertising in the direction of change so it's liked for it. Especially by young people doomscrolling about "property prices now vs before" and cartelgram/liveleakesque videos. Once you get older you get a stable job, family, etc so you're less nervous about life and have better things to do than to get your adrenaline up watching people get murdered.
Written from the perspective of someone who's started to get comfortable in life. Now I'm quite mild politically but I can go more right short term if I spend some time watching people get butchered by gangs/nutcases. Some of my friends still watch a lot of that and it definitely makes you very much like having a "capacity for violence". It's one of those things that's IMO good in moderation, since some paranoia is healthy but off the deep end it turns into "get them before they get me"esque genocidal ideas and scrolling the nazi army webm montages and gore threads on /gif/ / /b/ at 2AM.
Re: Turkish university annuls Erdogan rival's degree, preventing run for president
#360East and West, No matter what you call this platform or forum, the vast majority of users are from America and Europe. The East is often viewed from an Orientalist perspective in the eyes of the West. However, when it comes to Turkey, it resembles neither the East nor the West. Our electoral system is not like that of the East. There is no fraud or any other kind of manipulation. However, on the road to elections, an…
> There is no fraud or any other kind of manipulation
Can you expand on this? Changing the rules or subversive tactics such as getting a degree rescinded seems like that to me.