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Framework's first desktop is a strange–but unique–mini ITX gaming PC

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Re: Framework's first desktop is a strange–but unique–mini ITX gaming PC

#271

Post by AshamedCaptain »

rokweom wrote: post #258
abound wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The soldered RAM is surprising for Framework, and doubly surprising for being so in a form-factor that usually doesn't have soldered RAM. Similar to what other commenters have expressed, it just seems like they shouldn't have built this product if they couldn't figure out the soldered RAM bit.

Apparently this is due to signal integrity. AMD says swappable RAM is not possible. Source: LinusTechTips video.

The non-MAX Ryzen laptops also announced today actually use socketed RAM.

I guess they'd claim it is only the MAX AMD procs which force soldered RAM, but since they could as well have used a non-MAX chip (and correspondingly reduce the price) this just shows how much of this is an arbitrary, and therefore questionable, decision from Framework rather than any restriction AMD sets.

Re: Framework's first desktop is a strange–but unique–mini ITX gaming PC

#272

Post by jckahn »

nrp wrote: post #165

I’m happy to answer questions folks have on the Framework Desktop (though probably not until later today).

Hi Nirav! I don't have a question but I just wanted to say I'm a superfan of Framework. I love my AMD 13!

I'm as cynical as it gets when it comes to tech companies, but Framework is the only one that seems to be on track to actually make the world a better place. Please keep doing what you're doing, stick to the mission, and I'll be a customer for life.

Also please make a smartphone so I can finally be on an all-Framework stack! :)

Re: Framework's first desktop is a strange–but unique–mini ITX gaming PC

#273

Post by dajonker »

The Ryzen APU could be interesting for running local AI models and with 128 GB of RAM you can fit quite a large model. Plus it should be relatively energy efficient compared to a full size desktop build with separate GPU. Lack of PCIe 5.0 is a bit of a bummer as you could otherwise plug in some new Samsung 9100 Pro NVMe drives.

Would love to see how it performs. It supposedly has a memory bandwidth of 256 GB/sec which is about similar to a Threadripper Pro 7965WX with 8 memory channels. A Mac Studio M2 Ultra has 800 GB/sec of bandwidth though (which is RTX4080/RTX5080 territory) but is also about 2-3x more expensive at 128 GB of memory, not to mention the cost of upgrading internal storage.

Re: Framework's first desktop is a strange–but unique–mini ITX gaming PC

#274

Post by starkparker »

sdwr wrote: post #114
fragmede wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So don't make it then? If a particular vendor's product isn't in line with the company's mission, the CEO is the one to make the call to proceed with manufacturing. edit: it's not for me and I can totally just not buy one, but if one identified with their original mission and sees this as betrayal of that, it'd be hard to justify getting a framework laptop when it's their turn to upgrade.

I think their ethos is more about being user- and developer- friendly. RAM upgrades at reasonable prices, being able to buy the main board sans case, and supporting multiple OSes all point in that direction, without strictly being modular

"Details of Framework’s Environmental Ethos and Long Term Mission": https://knowledgebase.frame.work/details-of-framework-s-envi...

> July 7 2022 3:26pm

> Framework’s mission is to fix consumer electronics - and we are doing that by respecting you and the planet. We have put this vision into everything we do by providing you with amazing products that are meant to last as long as possible by letting you upgrade and modify them over that lifetime to support your specific needs.

> Our mission is to reduce the amount of waste that is generated and energy that is expended and reduce our overall consumer electronics footprint, while providing a better product than you can get anywhere else. This includes using post-consumer-recycled aluminum and plastic in our products as well as recycled and recyclable packaging.

> We have just started this journey, and we are continually looking for ways to reduce our footprint and be even healthier for the environment. We’re happy to get ideas and suggestions on how we can do this. The Framework Community is a great place to share this.

Re: Framework's first desktop is a strange–but unique–mini ITX gaming PC

#275

Post by dangus »

boricj wrote: post #49
calvinmorrison wrote: post #2

what is the pitch, because desktops don't have a problem with replacements, repairs etc.

If that was available when I started to build my homelab server, I'd have bought it. My requirements were a low-power but modern and punchy mini-ITX board with an AMD processor in a very compact build with a 48v DC power supply and SmartOS. That was basically unobtainium and I've compromised down to a AliExpress mini-ITX motherboard with a mobile AMD CPU, a AM5 heatsink and firmware that is... flavorful, powered by a…

No offense but your requirements make very little sense for that use case, unless you really needed PCI-Express.

I’d have bought a Beelink or similar mini PC if I wanted small size and low power along with low price. You lose some modularity compared to ITX boards but I am almost certain you spent more money and deal with more noise and maybe even more power consumption.

For me personally my homelab PC is just an ATX mid tower in the closet because those parts are dirt cheap and you can get lots of performance with essentially infinite modularity.

Re: Framework's first desktop is a strange–but unique–mini ITX gaming PC

#276

Post by nomel »

kaladin-jasnah wrote: post #238
yellow_lead wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From 7:40~ "The signal integrity doesn't work out." I don't understand, but maybe someone else could explain.

I think there's like electromagnetic interference if signals across various buses in computers are too close together, making it more likely that the signals get corrupted or noisy, which could increase latency for trying to clean the signal or make it impossible to get any data of value. Not an engineer though so please correct me. I only have a vague understanding of this.

> which could increase latency for trying to clean the signal

There's none of that here. That's a concept for uncontrolled interfaces. This is a memory interface, where you either have a good signal or a flawed design. Things like ECC do exist, but those are to detect bit corruption in the memory, but a flawless communication between is still required.

Re: Framework's first desktop is a strange–but unique–mini ITX gaming PC

#277

Post by Hackbraten »

poisonborz wrote: post #267

I wisth the 12" wouldn't have a garbage screen - although I'm hopeful for more options later on. This format would be equally if not more useful for gaming/business use case, I wonder why they start at the entry level.

Curiously, what do you feel is wrong about the 12" screen?

Two years ago, I switched from my 15" MacBook Pro to the 12" Framework, never looked back. What am I missing?

Re: Framework's first desktop is a strange–but unique–mini ITX gaming PC

#278

Post by Spunkie »

ThinkBeat wrote: post #28

It seems unframeworky Memory, CPU and GPU once piece of metal, sitting in a tiny box. A regular PC in a regular case, it a lot more modular and upgradable. It does seem like an interesting box, and matches against Apple Studio I would presume. Yet customers of Apple are used to having (near) 0 user modifiable parts. It might well have a good market, It might b a great box. It is unframeworky.

Honestly to me these announcements read as an outright abandonment of frameworks supposed mission.

Feels like a stab in the back.

Re: Framework's first desktop is a strange–but unique–mini ITX gaming PC

#279

Post by transpute »

rpcope1 wrote: post #260

Why on earth would someone buy this instead of a regular PC setup, especially at that price point? There's no way I would pay that sort of money and not be able to change out the GPU and RAM, and also only have a single PCIE 4x slot.

Local LLMs that seek 256Gbit/s memory bandwidth to AMD GPU. Alternatives are much more expensive.

Re: Framework's first desktop is a strange–but unique–mini ITX gaming PC

#280

Post by abdullahkhalids »

danielEM wrote: post #257
abound wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The soldered RAM is surprising for Framework, and doubly surprising for being so in a form-factor that usually doesn't have soldered RAM. Similar to what other commenters have expressed, it just seems like they shouldn't have built this product if they couldn't figure out the soldered RAM bit.

That is not a framework choice, that is an AMD architecture that doesn't use regular RAM modules as it requires wider data bus

I don't know anything about RAMs or their bus size. Is this something that will be "fixed" in the future, idk, with DDR6? Meaning we can have replacable RAM with such bus.
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