Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

ft.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

191–200 of 1001 posts

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#191

Post by wkz »

cscurmudgeon wrote: post #165
semking wrote: post #21

This is absolutely hilarious! :) ClosedAI scraped human content without asking and they explained why this was acceptable... but when the outputs of their training corpus is scraped, it is THEIR dataset and this is NOT acceptable! Oh, the irony! :D I shared a few screenshots of DeepSeek answering using ChatGPT's output in yesterday's article! https://semking.com/deepseek-china-ai-model-breakthrough-sec...

Scraping data is different from scraping outputs from a model.

Technically, sure. What is the moral distinction though?

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#192

Post by layer8 »

ceejayoz wrote: post #24

"You can't take data without asking" seems like a court precedent OpenAI really, really, really wants to avoid. And yet...

OpenAI is saying that their service was used in violation of their TOS, which is a bit different than just copying data. To be clear I’m not on OpenAI’s side, but it looks to me that the legal situation isn’t exactly analogous.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#193

Post by gruez »

semking wrote: post #21

This is absolutely hilarious! :) ClosedAI scraped human content without asking and they explained why this was acceptable... but when the outputs of their training corpus is scraped, it is THEIR dataset and this is NOT acceptable! Oh, the irony! :D I shared a few screenshots of DeepSeek answering using ChatGPT's output in yesterday's article! https://semking.com/deepseek-china-ai-model-breakthrough-sec...

The picture at the end showing deepseek's privacy policy and being concerned that it's "a security risk" is hilarious[1]. Basically every B2C company collects this sort of information[2], and is far less intrusive than what social networks collect[3]. But because it's Chinese and at the risk of overtaking Western companies, people are suddenly worried about device information and IP addresses?

[1] https://semking.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/DeepSeek-1024...

[2] https://www.bestbuy.com/site/help-topics/privacy-policy/pcmc...

[3] https://www.facebook.com/privacy/policy/

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#194

Post by JumpCrisscross »

cft wrote: post #122
toomuchtodo wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "they destroyed $1T of shareholder value." (By revealing that Microsoft et al. paid way too much to OpenAI et al. for technology that was actually easy to reinvent.) The value was highly speculative, an illusion created by PR and sentiment momentum. "Hype value" not real value (unless you're able to realize it and dump those bags on someone else before fundamentals set in). Same thing happening with power companies…

Since the time when companies en masse stopped paying cash dividends on owned shares, the value has become highly speculative. In the absence of dividend payments, the stock pricing mechanism is not essentially different from Solana or Ethereum "price" discovery.

> when companies en masse stopped paying stock dividends

Do you mean cash dividends [1]?

Also, the premise is false. Dividend yields have roughly tracked interest rates [2]. (The difference is a dirty component of the equity risk premium [3].)

[1] https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/05/stockcashdividen...

[2] https://www.multpl.com/s-p-500-dividend-yield/table/by-year

[3] https://www.investopedia.com/investing/calculating-equity-ri...

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#195

Post by derektank »

bhouston wrote: post #23

The US government likely will favor a large strategic company like OpenAI instead of individual's copyrights, so while ironic, the US government definitely doesn't care. And the US government is also likely itching to reduce the power of Chinese AI companies that could out compete US rivals (similar to the treatment of BYD, TikTok, solar panel manufacturers, network equipment manufacturers, etc), so expect sweeping l…

>The US government likely will favor a large strategic company like OpenAI instead of individual's copyrights

Even if we assume this is true, Disney and Netflix are both currently worth more than OpenAI and both rely on the strict enforcement of US copyright law. I do not think it is so obvious which powers that be have the better lobbying efforts and, currently, it's looking like this question will mostly be adjudicated by the courts, not Congress, anyways.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#196

Post by DebtDeflation »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #38
whatshisface wrote: post #19

It's reasonably likely that a lot of people linked to the federal government want to ban DeepSeek. You can tell it's being presented away from "they gave us a free set of weights" and towards "they destroyed $1T of shareholder value." (By revealing that Microsoft et al. paid way too much to OpenAI et al. for technology that was actually easy to reinvent.)

> "they destroyed $1T of shareholder value." (By revealing that Microsoft et al. paid way too much to OpenAI et al. for technology that was actually easy to reinvent.) The value was highly speculative, an illusion created by PR and sentiment momentum. "Hype value" not real value (unless you're able to realize it and dump those bags on someone else before fundamentals set in). Same thing happening with power companies…

What they really destroyed was the idea that OpenAI would be able to charge $200/month for their ChatGPT Pro subscription which includes o1. That was always ridiculous IMO. The Free tier and $20/month Plus tier along with their API business (minus any future plan to charge a ridiculous amount for API access to o1) will be fine.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#198

Post by coliveira »

TypingOutBugs wrote: post #115
semking wrote: post #21

This is absolutely hilarious! :) ClosedAI scraped human content without asking and they explained why this was acceptable... but when the outputs of their training corpus is scraped, it is THEIR dataset and this is NOT acceptable! Oh, the irony! :D I shared a few screenshots of DeepSeek answering using ChatGPT's output in yesterday's article! https://semking.com/deepseek-china-ai-model-breakthrough-sec...

Screw OpenAI, they scrape us without issues so someone scraped them. No issues with this.

But the government will now claim this is against "national security". Only American companies are allowed to commit this kind of "sleight of hand".

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#199

Post by blackeyeblitzar »

tedivm wrote: post #136
pen2l wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While all of this is true, that DeepSeek wouldn't be here were it not for the research that preceded it notably Google's paper, then Llama, and ChatGPT which they're modeled after, its release still did something profound to their psyche, the motivation and self-actualization this instills to the Chinese. They witnessed the power of their accomplishments: a side-hustle project knocked off an easy trillion. This is on…

OpenAI wouldn't be here without the work that Yann Lecun did at Facebook (back when it was facebook). Science is built on top of science, that's just how things work.

Is that really true? If anything OpenAI was dependent on the transformers paper from Google from Ashish Vaswani and others. LeCun has been criticizing LLM architectures for a long time and has been wrong about them for a long time.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#200

Post by mk89 »

blantonl wrote: post #169
bhouston wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We demand immediate government action to prevent these cheaper foreign AIs from taking jobs away from our great American AIs! That is exactly what Microsoft and Sam Alman are asking for. And they will likely get it because Trump really likes protectionist governments policies.

It’s funny, the Chinese are here innovating on AI, batteries, and fusion, and here in the United States we’ve pivoted to shitcoins and universal tariffs. At least we have the CyberTruck to highlight American greatness

They created an untameable beast (China) thanks to the "cheap factories" there and they thought they would stay that way.

What a bunch of idiots. The propaganda keeps telling us that they don't invent, they can only copy etc., but clearly that's not true.

Post reply on HN