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OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

ft.com

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Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#161

Post by stravant »

pen2l wrote: post #126
semking wrote: post #21

This is absolutely hilarious! :) ClosedAI scraped human content without asking and they explained why this was acceptable... but when the outputs of their training corpus is scraped, it is THEIR dataset and this is NOT acceptable! Oh, the irony! :D I shared a few screenshots of DeepSeek answering using ChatGPT's output in yesterday's article! https://semking.com/deepseek-china-ai-model-breakthrough-sec...

While all of this is true, that DeepSeek wouldn't be here were it not for the research that preceded it notably Google's paper, then Llama, and ChatGPT which they're modeled after, its release still did something profound to their psyche, the motivation and self-actualization this instills to the Chinese. They witnessed the power of their accomplishments: a side-hustle project knocked off an easy trillion. This is on…

Yes, and what does preceding research do? Get followed by more research building on it.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#162

Post by spencerflem »

thorum wrote: post #125

> “It is (relatively) easy to copy something that you know works,” Altman tweeted. “It is extremely hard to do something new, risky, and difficult when you don’t know if it will work.” The humor/hypocrisy of the situation aside, it does seem to be true that OpenAI is consistently the one coming up with new ideas first (GPT 4, o1, 4o-style multimodality, voice chat, DALL-E, …) and then other companies reproduce their…

Fortunately, OpenAI doesn't need to make money because they are a nonprofit dedicated to the safe and transparent advancement of AI for all of humanity

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#163

Post by [deleted] »

rachofsunshine wrote: post #120

"It's obvious! You're trying to kidnap what I have rightfully stolen!" Yet another of a series of recent lessons in listening to people - particularly powerful people focused on PR - when they claim a neutral moral principle for what happens to be pragmatically convenient for them. A principle applied only when convenient is not a principle at all, it's just the skin of one stretched over what would otherwise be nake…

[deleted]

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#164

Post by pama »

The R1 paper used o1-mini and o1-1217 in their comparisons, so I imagine they needed to use lots of OpenAI compute in December and January to evaluate their benchmarks in the same way as the rest of their pipeline. They show that distilling to smaller models works wonders, but you need the thought traces, which o1 does not provide. My best guess is that these types of news are just noise.

[edit: the above comment was based on sensetionalist reporting in the original link and not the current FT article. I still think there is a lot of noise in these news this last week, but it may well be that openai has valid evidence of wrongdoing; I would guess that any such wrongdoing would apply directly to V3 rather than R1-zero, because o1 does not provide traces and generating synthetic thinking data with 4o may be counterproductive.]

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#165

Post by cscurmudgeon »

semking wrote: post #21

This is absolutely hilarious! :) ClosedAI scraped human content without asking and they explained why this was acceptable... but when the outputs of their training corpus is scraped, it is THEIR dataset and this is NOT acceptable! Oh, the irony! :D I shared a few screenshots of DeepSeek answering using ChatGPT's output in yesterday's article! https://semking.com/deepseek-china-ai-model-breakthrough-sec...

Scraping data is different from scraping outputs from a model.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#167

Post by IAmGraydon »

whatshisface wrote: post #19

It's reasonably likely that a lot of people linked to the federal government want to ban DeepSeek. You can tell it's being presented away from "they gave us a free set of weights" and towards "they destroyed $1T of shareholder value." (By revealing that Microsoft et al. paid way too much to OpenAI et al. for technology that was actually easy to reinvent.)

Yeah they're setting this up to ban it. Crazy that they think this kind of approach will work in any way. Banning H100s didn't work, and actually pushed them to innovate. Now someone has found a more efficient way to train a model and they decide the best way forward is for the US not to benefit from access to it? This is clear evidence of collusion between OpenAI and the US Government to disadvantage competitors. Beyond that, it will never work. If they need to be reminded of just how little power they have to control the distribution of open source models, I think we would all be happy to enlighten them.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#168

Post by dismalaf »

pen2l wrote: post #126
semking wrote: post #21

This is absolutely hilarious! :) ClosedAI scraped human content without asking and they explained why this was acceptable... but when the outputs of their training corpus is scraped, it is THEIR dataset and this is NOT acceptable! Oh, the irony! :D I shared a few screenshots of DeepSeek answering using ChatGPT's output in yesterday's article! https://semking.com/deepseek-china-ai-model-breakthrough-sec...

While all of this is true, that DeepSeek wouldn't be here were it not for the research that preceded it notably Google's paper, then Llama, and ChatGPT which they're modeled after, its release still did something profound to their psyche, the motivation and self-actualization this instills to the Chinese. They witnessed the power of their accomplishments: a side-hustle project knocked off an easy trillion. This is on…

Don't forget all the research that came before OpenAI and ChatGPT...

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#169

Post by blantonl »

bhouston wrote: post #91
mring33621 wrote: post #65

We demand immediate government action to prevent these cheaper foreign AIs from taking jobs away from our great American AIs!

> We demand immediate government action to prevent these cheaper foreign AIs from taking jobs away from our great American AIs! That is exactly what Microsoft and Sam Alman are asking for. And they will likely get it because Trump really likes protectionist governments policies.

It’s funny, the Chinese are here innovating on AI, batteries, and fusion, and here in the United States we’ve pivoted to shitcoins and universal tariffs.

At least we have the CyberTruck to highlight American greatness

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#170

Post by michaelt »

beAbU wrote: post #66
marricks wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, DeepSeek is allegedly... better? So saying they just copied ClosedAI isn't really sufficient of an answer. Seems to be just bluster because the US Govt would probably accept any excuse to ban it, see TikTok.

How can they ban something thats open source that you can just run on your own hardware?

Make commercial hosting illegal, and make the hardware to run it locally cost $6000+
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