Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

ft.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

121–130 of 1001 posts

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#121

Post by Palmik »

mritchie712 wrote: post #71
semking wrote: post #21

This is absolutely hilarious! :) ClosedAI scraped human content without asking and they explained why this was acceptable... but when the outputs of their training corpus is scraped, it is THEIR dataset and this is NOT acceptable! Oh, the irony! :D I shared a few screenshots of DeepSeek answering using ChatGPT's output in yesterday's article! https://semking.com/deepseek-china-ai-model-breakthrough-sec...

openai should pay creators, but: 1. scraping the internet and making AI out of it 2. using the AI from #1 to create another AI are not the same thing.

I agree, (2) seems much less problematic since the AI outputs are not copyrightable and since OpenAI gives up ownership of the outputs. [1]

So, if you really really care about ToS, then just never enter into a contract with OpenAI. Company A uses OpenAI to generate data and posts it on the open Internet. Company B scrapes open Internet, including the data from Company A [2].

[1]: Ownership of content. As between you and OpenAI, and to the extent permitted by applicable law, you (a) retain your ownership rights in Input and (b) own the Output. We hereby assign to you all our right, title, and interest, if any, in and to Output.

[2]: This is not hypothetical. When ChatGPT got first released, several big AI labs accidentally and not so accidentally trained on the contents of the ShareGPT website (site that was made for sharing ChatGPT outputs). ;)

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#122

Post by cft »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #38
whatshisface wrote: post #19

It's reasonably likely that a lot of people linked to the federal government want to ban DeepSeek. You can tell it's being presented away from "they gave us a free set of weights" and towards "they destroyed $1T of shareholder value." (By revealing that Microsoft et al. paid way too much to OpenAI et al. for technology that was actually easy to reinvent.)

> "they destroyed $1T of shareholder value." (By revealing that Microsoft et al. paid way too much to OpenAI et al. for technology that was actually easy to reinvent.) The value was highly speculative, an illusion created by PR and sentiment momentum. "Hype value" not real value (unless you're able to realize it and dump those bags on someone else before fundamentals set in). Same thing happening with power companies…

Since the time when companies en masse stopped paying cash dividends on owned shares, the value has become highly speculative. In the absence of dividend payments, the stock pricing mechanism is not essentially different from Solana or Ethereum "price" discovery.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#123

Post by supermatt »

They refer to this in the paper as a part of the "cold start data" which they use to fine-tune DeepSeek-V3 prior to training R1.

They don't specifically name OpenAI, but they refer to "directly prompting models to generate answers with reflection and verification".

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#124

Post by sksrbWgbfK »

mritchie712 wrote: post #71
semking wrote: post #21

This is absolutely hilarious! :) ClosedAI scraped human content without asking and they explained why this was acceptable... but when the outputs of their training corpus is scraped, it is THEIR dataset and this is NOT acceptable! Oh, the irony! :D I shared a few screenshots of DeepSeek answering using ChatGPT's output in yesterday's article! https://semking.com/deepseek-china-ai-model-breakthrough-sec...

openai should pay creators, but: 1. scraping the internet and making AI out of it 2. using the AI from #1 to create another AI are not the same thing.

> 2. using the AI from #1 to create another AI

2. scraping the AI from #1 and making AI out of it

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#125

Post by thorum »

> “It is (relatively) easy to copy something that you know works,” Altman tweeted. “It is extremely hard to do something new, risky, and difficult when you don’t know if it will work.”

The humor/hypocrisy of the situation aside, it does seem to be true that OpenAI is consistently the one coming up with new ideas first (GPT 4, o1, 4o-style multimodality, voice chat, DALL-E, …) and then other companies reproduce their work, and get more credit because they actually publish the research.

Unfortunately for them it’s challenging to profit in the long term from being first in this space and the time it takes for each new idea to be reproduced is getting shorter.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#126

Post by pen2l »

semking wrote: post #21

This is absolutely hilarious! :) ClosedAI scraped human content without asking and they explained why this was acceptable... but when the outputs of their training corpus is scraped, it is THEIR dataset and this is NOT acceptable! Oh, the irony! :D I shared a few screenshots of DeepSeek answering using ChatGPT's output in yesterday's article! https://semking.com/deepseek-china-ai-model-breakthrough-sec...

While all of this is true, that DeepSeek wouldn't be here were it not for the research that preceded it notably Google's paper, then Llama, and ChatGPT which they're modeled after, its release still did something profound to their psyche, the motivation and self-actualization this instills to the Chinese. They witnessed the power of their accomplishments: a side-hustle project knocked off an easy trillion. This is only egging them on and will serve to ramp up their efforts even more.

Separately, I do think that now that the Chinese leadership saw this, that they have the chops to pull this off and then some, they are probably going to rein in future innovations; they'll likely demand that the big future discoveries remain closed-sourced (or even unannounced/unpublicized).

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#127

Post by toomuchtodo »

cft wrote: post #122
toomuchtodo wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "they destroyed $1T of shareholder value." (By revealing that Microsoft et al. paid way too much to OpenAI et al. for technology that was actually easy to reinvent.) The value was highly speculative, an illusion created by PR and sentiment momentum. "Hype value" not real value (unless you're able to realize it and dump those bags on someone else before fundamentals set in). Same thing happening with power companies…

Since the time when companies en masse stopped paying cash dividends on owned shares, the value has become highly speculative. In the absence of dividend payments, the stock pricing mechanism is not essentially different from Solana or Ethereum "price" discovery.

I don't disagree that price discovery is harder, but I can with more certainty give an honest valuation of CLF or DOW vs OpenAI's "who knows what money will look like after we succeed, you should view your investment as a donation" nonsense. Speculation is inevitable when forward looking, but there is a difference between error bars and various projections vs unicorns.

Due diligence never goes out of style.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#128

Post by mattgreenrocks »

jasoneckert wrote: post #20

What I find the most comical about this is that the whole situation could be loosely summarized as "OpenAI is losing its job to AI."

OpenAI should be excited that it has been freed of the tedious tasks of building AI and now they can focus on higher level and more creative things.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#129

Post by bhouston »

clarionbell wrote: post #116
bhouston wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We demand immediate government action to prevent these cheaper foreign AIs from taking jobs away from our great American AIs! That is exactly what Microsoft and Sam Alman are asking for. And they will likely get it because Trump really likes protectionist governments policies.

He likes feeling important, just look at TikTok. All it took was bit of sycophancy and he turned into Mr. Freemarket again. Really, people need to realize that Trump has never been consistent in any of his political positions, except for one: "You have to look out for number one."

clarionbell wrote:

> He likes feeling important, just look at TikTok. All it took was bit of sycophancy and he turned into Mr. Freemarket again.

Not really. He said that TikTok has to have shift towards US ownership if it wants to continue, he just gave them a 90 day extension to allow that change in ownership.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#130

Post by Palmik »

sho_hn wrote: post #49

While I'm as amused as everyone else - I think it's technically accurate to point out that the "we trained it for $6 mio" narrative is contingent on the done investment by others.

When I use NVIDIA GPUs to train a model, I do not consider the R&D cost to develop all of those GPUs as part of my costs.

When I use an API to generate some data, I do not consider the R&D cost to develop the API as part of my costs.

Post reply on HN