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OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

ft.com

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Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#111

Post by gliptic »

throwup238 wrote: post #94
marricks wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, DeepSeek is allegedly... better? So saying they just copied ClosedAI isn't really sufficient of an answer. Seems to be just bluster because the US Govt would probably accept any excuse to ban it, see TikTok.

It’s not better. In most of my tests (C++/QT code) it just runs out of context before it can really do anything. And the output is very bad - it mashes together the header and cpp file. The reasoning output is fun to look at and occasionally useful though. The max token output is only 8K (32K thinking tokens). O1 is 128k, which is far more useful, and it doesn’t get stuck like R1 does. The hype around the DeepSeek re…

R1 is trained for a context length of 128K. Where are you getting 8K/32K? The model doesn't distinguish "thinking" tokens and "output" tokens, so this must be some specific API limitations.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#112

Post by marricks »

throwup238 wrote: post #94
marricks wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, DeepSeek is allegedly... better? So saying they just copied ClosedAI isn't really sufficient of an answer. Seems to be just bluster because the US Govt would probably accept any excuse to ban it, see TikTok.

It’s not better. In most of my tests (C++/QT code) it just runs out of context before it can really do anything. And the output is very bad - it mashes together the header and cpp file. The reasoning output is fun to look at and occasionally useful though. The max token output is only 8K (32K thinking tokens). O1 is 128k, which is far more useful, and it doesn’t get stuck like R1 does. The hype around the DeepSeek re…

> it just runs out of context before it can really do anything

I mean, couldn't that be because they're just overwhelmed by users at the moment?

> And the output is very bad - it mashes together the header and cpp file

That sounds way worse, and like, not something caused by being hugged to death though.

Aider recently stated DeepSeek is placed a the top of their benchmark though[1] so I'm inclined to believe it isn't all hype.

[1] https://aider.chat/docs/llms/deepseek.html

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#113

Post by belter »

semking wrote: post #21

This is absolutely hilarious! :) ClosedAI scraped human content without asking and they explained why this was acceptable... but when the outputs of their training corpus is scraped, it is THEIR dataset and this is NOT acceptable! Oh, the irony! :D I shared a few screenshots of DeepSeek answering using ChatGPT's output in yesterday's article! https://semking.com/deepseek-china-ai-model-breakthrough-sec...

So it is true, they run out of Data to steal? :-)

And then where DeepSeek steal from next? Do they steal from themselves? Do they steal the stolen models they stole from the stolen data?

The AI Ponzi scheme...

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#114

Post by Keyframe »

jasoneckert wrote: post #20

What I find the most comical about this is that the whole situation could be loosely summarized as "OpenAI is losing its job to AI."

also, China doing in IP what it's better at and way more experienced than USA - stealing.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#115

Post by TypingOutBugs »

semking wrote: post #21

This is absolutely hilarious! :) ClosedAI scraped human content without asking and they explained why this was acceptable... but when the outputs of their training corpus is scraped, it is THEIR dataset and this is NOT acceptable! Oh, the irony! :D I shared a few screenshots of DeepSeek answering using ChatGPT's output in yesterday's article! https://semking.com/deepseek-china-ai-model-breakthrough-sec...

Screw OpenAI, they scrape us without issues so someone scraped them. No issues with this.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#116

Post by clarionbell »

bhouston wrote: post #91
mring33621 wrote: post #65

We demand immediate government action to prevent these cheaper foreign AIs from taking jobs away from our great American AIs!

> We demand immediate government action to prevent these cheaper foreign AIs from taking jobs away from our great American AIs! That is exactly what Microsoft and Sam Alman are asking for. And they will likely get it because Trump really likes protectionist governments policies.

He likes feeling important, just look at TikTok. All it took was bit of sycophancy and he turned into Mr. Freemarket again.

Really, people need to realize that Trump has never been consistent in any of his political positions, except for one: "You have to look out for number one."

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#117

Post by epse »

mritchie712 wrote: post #71
semking wrote: post #21

This is absolutely hilarious! :) ClosedAI scraped human content without asking and they explained why this was acceptable... but when the outputs of their training corpus is scraped, it is THEIR dataset and this is NOT acceptable! Oh, the irony! :D I shared a few screenshots of DeepSeek answering using ChatGPT's output in yesterday's article! https://semking.com/deepseek-china-ai-model-breakthrough-sec...

openai should pay creators, but: 1. scraping the internet and making AI out of it 2. using the AI from #1 to create another AI are not the same thing.

#1 destroys peoples willingness to publish and unfairly hogs bandwidth / creates costs for small hosters

#2 makes a big corp a bit angry

Indeed not the same thing

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#118

Post by latexr »

mritchie712 wrote: post #71
semking wrote: post #21

This is absolutely hilarious! :) ClosedAI scraped human content without asking and they explained why this was acceptable... but when the outputs of their training corpus is scraped, it is THEIR dataset and this is NOT acceptable! Oh, the irony! :D I shared a few screenshots of DeepSeek answering using ChatGPT's output in yesterday's article! https://semking.com/deepseek-china-ai-model-breakthrough-sec...

openai should pay creators, but: 1. scraping the internet and making AI out of it 2. using the AI from #1 to create another AI are not the same thing.

> are not the same thing.

You’re right. The second one is far more ethical. Especially when stealing from a thief.

Doesn’t Sam Altman keep parroting they’re developing AI “for the good of humanity”? Well then, someone taking their model and improving on it, making it open-source, having it consume less, and having a cheaper API, should make him delighted. Unless he *gasp* was full of shit the whole time. Who could have guessed?

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#120

Post by rachofsunshine »

"It's obvious! You're trying to kidnap what I have rightfully stolen!"

Yet another of a series of recent lessons in listening to people - particularly powerful people focused on PR - when they claim a neutral moral principle for what happens to be pragmatically convenient for them. A principle applied only when convenient is not a principle at all, it's just the skin of one stretched over what would otherwise be naked greed.

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