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Finland's zero homeless strategy (2021)

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Re: Finland's zero homeless strategy (2021)

#401

Post by Qwertious »

cudgy wrote: post #397
Qwertious wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point is that immigration is a distraction from the nonfunctioning economy .

And yet the non-functioning economy might be a result of the excessive immigration. Which one is easiest to address?

>And yet the non-functioning economy might be a result of the excessive immigration.

It's not. If you have a narrative for how immigration could explain why there's record-high home prices and yet there isn't a corresponding spike in construction, then please post it. Because this is pretty obviously a problem of suppressed supply.

Re: Finland's zero homeless strategy (2021)

#402

Post by andirk »

cudgy wrote: post #395
wat10000 wrote: post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A business center doesn't have to be expensive. That’s made to happen because housing isn’t allowed to be built in sufficient quantity, not a necessary consequence of success.

And yet most large cities have sections of it that are in total blight with abandoned homes, with windows blown out or plywood covering access holes to prevent intruders. Much of the problem is that the bourgeois class wants to live in the popular neighborhood, bidding up rents and values in isolated sections of large cities. Meanwhile, large chunks of cities have relatively affordable, but not as attractive neighbor…

Here in Berkeley and other SF Bay Area cities, we have imposed an "Empty Home Tax" [0][1] at some $ and % per year. As a proponent, I figured it would incentivize people to either rent or sell their unused properties which will house people and get rid of blight. Neither has happened much and these owners just take the hit. Housing as a speculative asset has some pretty terrible consequences.

[0] https://www.berkeleyside.org/2022/10/23/election-2022-measur...

[1] https://rentboard.berkeleyca.gov/sites/default/files/documen...

Re: Finland's zero homeless strategy (2021)

#403

Post by lifestyleguru »

yieldcrv wrote: post #361
verteu wrote: post #220

They also do a lot of compulsory psychiatric detention: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/psychiatric-bulletin... > Finnish mental health legislation takes a medical approach to compulsory measures, emphasising the need for treatment of psychiatric patients over civil liberties concerns... Finland has the highest rates of detention per 100 000 inhabitants, about 214 compared with 93 in the UK and 11 in Italy. >…

Its not a single thing In San Francisco studies of their populations revealed lots of segments of homeless people The one that stuck out to me the most was the most distressing: people that were homeless within last 12 months of the study, a huge percent of them were just people that left a relationship. That was a housing price problem. I knew so many people that had broken up but still living together, and its craz…

Yes this is absolutely the case also in Europe. In Berlin or Munich you're not going to rent anything as a single person. In Warsaw or Prague you'll not afford to rent anything on one local income (assuming you even have a job there currently).

Re: Finland's zero homeless strategy (2021)

#404

Post by throw5959 »

epistasis wrote: post #328
lostlogin wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The context was that immigration was being encouraged, while not having enough housing. Immigration being used to fuel growth. Housing the people is great, but encouraging immigration while being unable to house the current population is not.

That's at best a less-than-complete view of immigration. For immigrants themselves, it is usually an issue of self-determination and freedom. I can't say I'm fully privy to the immigration debate in Canada, but framing it as an issue of "growth" could not be a complete view of the advocates of immigration. Especially with the level of acceptance of refugees in Canada. The not enough housing aspect is completely incid…

Everybody cares about growth. The world will end the minute we finally stop growing. The entire economic system and society will unravel

Re: Finland's zero homeless strategy (2021)

#405

Post by cudgy »

Qwertious wrote: post #401
cudgy wrote: post #397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet the non-functioning economy might be a result of the excessive immigration. Which one is easiest to address?

>And yet the non-functioning economy might be a result of the excessive immigration. It's not. If you have a narrative for how immigration could explain why there's record-high home prices and yet there isn't a corresponding spike in construction, then please post it. Because this is pretty obviously a problem of suppressed supply.

I’m not implying that immigration is the only reason for higher housing prices. My opinion is that 0% interest rates and loose credit are the primary reason.

However, simple supply/demand would suggest that immigration AND 0% interest rates both affect demand quickly while supply requires securing land, building homes and getting approval to build homes takes significant time. Migrations are happening at a faster rate than housing can be built so it definitely has an impact on prices.

Re: Finland's zero homeless strategy (2021)

#406

Post by enaaem »

Barrin92 wrote: post #284
enaaem wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People hate om commie blocks but it was an excellent solution to mass produce affordable housing in war torn Europe. The free market is full of cheap mass produced stuff. Why can't housing be mass produced? Why are there not more economic options? It's almost always restrictive regulations that stops these solutions from happening.

>People hate om commie blocks people tend to hate on the decades old, usually cheap because under heavily financial constraints Eastern bloc version, but Finland relevant to the topic of the thread to this day is heavily inspired by that kind of architecture, and a lot of modern neighborhoods being built are basically the same thing... just nice and with a bit more cash on hand.[1] It's an eminently sane way to house…

Looks great. I have heard Finland has very affordable housing.

Yeah I do agree we should build better housing now than post WW2 economies. The main point I want to make is that affordable housing is already solved.

Re: Finland's zero homeless strategy (2021)

#407

Post by cudgy »

andirk wrote: post #402
cudgy wrote: post #395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet most large cities have sections of it that are in total blight with abandoned homes, with windows blown out or plywood covering access holes to prevent intruders. Much of the problem is that the bourgeois class wants to live in the popular neighborhood, bidding up rents and values in isolated sections of large cities. Meanwhile, large chunks of cities have relatively affordable, but not as attractive neighbor…

Here in Berkeley and other SF Bay Area cities, we have imposed an "Empty Home Tax" [0][1] at some $ and % per year. As a proponent, I figured it would incentivize people to either rent or sell their unused properties which will house people and get rid of blight. Neither has happened much and these owners just take the hit. Housing as a speculative asset has some pretty terrible consequences. [0] https://www.berkeley…

I don’t disagree that speculation on a critical resource like housing is a really harmful phenomena. Another concern is when people use housing as a store of value for diversity in their portfolio. These long term “investors” are less likely to care whether their houses are rented or occupied as they have enough wealth to weather the loss of revenue or even fluctuations of the asset prices.

The empty home tax is a great idea, but my guess is the tax/fee is not significant enough to change investor behavior. Or possibly it’s not being enforced at the level it should be?

Re: Finland's zero homeless strategy (2021)

#408

Post by dbspin »

andirk wrote: post #402
cudgy wrote: post #395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet most large cities have sections of it that are in total blight with abandoned homes, with windows blown out or plywood covering access holes to prevent intruders. Much of the problem is that the bourgeois class wants to live in the popular neighborhood, bidding up rents and values in isolated sections of large cities. Meanwhile, large chunks of cities have relatively affordable, but not as attractive neighbor…

Here in Berkeley and other SF Bay Area cities, we have imposed an "Empty Home Tax" [0][1] at some $ and % per year. As a proponent, I figured it would incentivize people to either rent or sell their unused properties which will house people and get rid of blight. Neither has happened much and these owners just take the hit. Housing as a speculative asset has some pretty terrible consequences. [0] https://www.berkeley…

I think the principle is solid though. Tax should effectively be 100% of the market value of the property after a certain point though - say one year.

Re: Finland's zero homeless strategy (2021)

#409

Post by lifestyleguru »

skirge wrote: post #125
octopusRex wrote: post #8

The US chooses not to end homelessness. We have the highest GDP in the world. We could end it if we wanted to. I was in Japan recently. A choice was made there as well.

US and Europe have different reasone for homelessnes. Give free houses in US and next day you will have +400mln people from South America. In EU (I can speak for Poland) most homeless have alcohol and violence problems - people removed from homes for domestic violence by court (divorce). You must be quite bad person if no one takes care of you, in a country with a) strong family tights and b) many people owning a hom…

Now consider that most homeless in Poland are male. There _exist_ people who never had family, or ruthless real estate grabbers who'd rather have real estate for themselves and a homeless family member.

> people removed from homes for domestic violence by court (divorce)

This is classic why the husband moves out, have you ever dealt with family courts as a male in Poland, nothing rings the bell for you? So a male homeless must be violent alcoholic, right? I'm happy that your life and family are doing okay. Once your life will turn more difficult, Polish society will dismiss you as a violent alcoholic and no help or support will be awaiting. Will reveal you one more secret, Polish male homeless are in Germany and Netherlands. Occasionally you hear about them in media when someone beats them to death or sets them on fire.

Re: Finland's zero homeless strategy (2021)

#410

Post by dbspin »

bnralt wrote: post #309
verteu wrote: post #220

They also do a lot of compulsory psychiatric detention: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/psychiatric-bulletin... > Finnish mental health legislation takes a medical approach to compulsory measures, emphasising the need for treatment of psychiatric patients over civil liberties concerns... Finland has the highest rates of detention per 100 000 inhabitants, about 214 compared with 93 in the UK and 11 in Italy. >…

> edit: I should mention that I've seen fairly convincing cross-sectional evidence that homelessness is more related to the housing market than mental illness: https://www.ucpress.edu/books/homelessness-is-a-housing-prob ... , https://www.nahro.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/NAHRO-Summi ... The problem is that there are very different groups of people we're talking about, so much so that throwing them all under the "…

Downright shocking that a policy like this would be adopted without the necessary social supports in place. There should be regular visits by care workers, addiction councillors, mental health professionals, access to education and jobs programmes etc. Even in the absence of mental illness and addiction (which are of course both rise in unhoused populations) living on the street leaves people with enormous unaddressed trauma, skill deficits and physical health issues.
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