Finland's zero homeless strategy (2021) • Hacker News Board

Re: Finland's zero homeless strategy (2021)

#341

Post by anon291 » Sat, Jan 11, 2025, 4:09 AM UTC

yard2010 wrote: post #120

IncreasePosts wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you end homelessness, when some percent of homeless people will, if you give them a place to stay, smoke meth all day and make their apartment and nearby apartments health hazards? Many drug addicts don't want to be addicted, and would try to go through treatment if provided. But some are inveterate, and don't want to quit. What do you do with them?

Not all homeless people are dangerous drug addicts.

The data are pretty clear that those who are not drug addicts end up coming out of homelessness fairly fast by making use of America's numerous social programs. The story of American poverty alleviation is a resounding success.

Drug addiction and mental illness is another story.

Re: Finland's zero homeless strategy (2021)

#342

Post by wpm » Sat, Jan 11, 2025, 4:11 AM UTC

MichaelZuo wrote: post #187

titaniumtown wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The government and laws?

Which part of what government? With what legal basis? Things aren’t magically legal and viable in the real world just because an HN user imagines it.

Most liberal democracies have provision within their founding documents and case law to allow for central governments at all levels to provide for the general welfare.

You are asking highly vague implementation details about a small hypothetical. It comes off as incredibly rude and like you're fishing for some answer you already mentally dunked on.

Re: Finland's zero homeless strategy (2021)

#343

Post by seanmcdirmid » Sat, Jan 11, 2025, 4:12 AM UTC

wslh wrote: post #337

tlogan wrote: post #318

I wanted to point out that the approach adopted by Finland may not be suitable for the United States. Finland has a population of only 5.6 million—less than two-thirds of the Bay Area—so their solutions, unfortunately, may not scale effectively in a larger, more complex environment. The other - even more important issue with all these approaches, however, lies in treating all homeless individuals as a single category…

It’s also about cultural homogeneity. Countries like Finland, Denmark, and Norway often have relatively uniform cultural frameworks, which can make it easier to implement broad social policies. The U.S., by contrast, is among the most multicultural nations in the world. This isn’t a critique of diversity, but an acknowledgment that diversity often leads to more complex social dynamics and outcomes than homogeneity. A…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Denmark

> According to 2021 figures from Statistics Denmark, 86%[21][22] of Denmark's population of over 5,840,045 was of Danish descent.[23][21] The remaining 14% were of a foreign background, defined as immigrants or descendants of recent immigrants. ... More than 817,438 individuals (14%)[21][22] are migrants and their descendants (199,668 second generation migrants born in Denmark[22]). ... Of these 817,438[21] immigrants and their descendants: 522,640 (63.9%)[22] have a non-Western background (Turkey, Iraq, Iran, Pakistan, Thailand and Somalia; all other countries).

522.6k non-western background peoples for a country of 5,840,045 is not really what I would call homogeneity. The big cities (like Copenhagen and Aarhus) probably are even less homogenous.

Re: Finland's zero homeless strategy (2021)

#344

Post by wpm » Sat, Jan 11, 2025, 4:12 AM UTC

mrkstu wrote: post #224

cousin_it wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What nonsense. Did you hear me proposing nationalizing all industry? Having a state ideology? Closing the borders? Removing freedom of speech? No, what I proposed was giving people free housing. Another thing I'd propose is giving people free healthcare. Both these things are good ideas. Mentioning the USSR doesn't make them bad ideas.

I can say all day that my ideas are 'good.' But the only place in the modern era that has tried mass 'free housing' are communist ones and all those societies stopped doing it or failed altogether. That doesn't seem like it has worked out as a 'good idea.'

Did you read the article?

Re: Finland's zero homeless strategy (2021)

#345

Post by spauldo » Sat, Jan 11, 2025, 4:21 AM UTC

rossdavidh wrote: post #66

"Building flats is key: otherwise, especially if housing supply is particularly rigid, the funding of rentals can risk driving up rents (OECD, 2021a), thus reducing the “bang for the buck” of public spending." So, yes, if you want low homelessness, you build a lot of housing and make sure that rents are low. This is true, and a good strategy.

Just search for "Habitrail for Humanity" (and make sure you read that right).

Re: Finland's zero homeless strategy (2021)

#346

Post by wrl » Sat, Jan 11, 2025, 4:22 AM UTC

sugarplant wrote: post #296

sonofhans wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In some US popular culture “drug addict” is code for “weak or immoral person.” There’s very little empathy or understanding of people who are much less fortunate; there’s plenty of evidence in this thread. This misguided moral compass outweighs even sensible practices like harm reduction. People would rather see junkies die on the street of hepatitis than give them free housing and needles. It satisfies some primal n…

this is such a dishonest characterization. the issue people have with free needles is that they end up everywhere but a sharps container. they throw loose needles in every park, walking path, bus stop, etc. in the entire city. my city has had this issue for years now. you should use some of the superhuman empathy you have to explore other perspectives on the issue. even for just a minute.

Is the implication here that needle and syringe programs cause needles to be left everywhere?

Because, if so... let's just sit with that for a second and think it through.

Re: Finland's zero homeless strategy (2021)

#347

Post by wslh » Sat, Jan 11, 2025, 4:44 AM UTC

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #343

wslh wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s also about cultural homogeneity. Countries like Finland, Denmark, and Norway often have relatively uniform cultural frameworks, which can make it easier to implement broad social policies. The U.S., by contrast, is among the most multicultural nations in the world. This isn’t a critique of diversity, but an acknowledgment that diversity often leads to more complex social dynamics and outcomes than homogeneity. A…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Denmark > According to 2021 figures from Statistics Denmark, 86%[21][22] of Denmark's population of over 5,840,045 was of Danish descent.[23][21] The remaining 14% were of a foreign background, defined as immigrants or descendants of recent immigrants. ... More than 817,438 individuals (14%)[21][22] are migrants and their descendants (199,668 second generation migrants bo…

Your numbers don't contradict my message, look at the demographics of US which shows real complexity [1]. You should also take into consideration the evolution of demographics not just a single point. Last, but not least you should take into account their refugee programs [2] and how power is really distributed.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_Sta...

[2] https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/countries/DNK/den....

Re: Finland's zero homeless strategy (2021)

#348

Post by wat10000 » Sat, Jan 11, 2025, 4:53 AM UTC

verelo wrote: post #313

retrac wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fifty years ago in Ontario, Canada if you were a single adult destitute with no income you would be eligible for general welfare which would pay about $180 a month, when the average rent on 1 bedroom apartment in Toronto was about $150 a month. Today, an adult in the same position gets about $800 while rent is $1300. It used to be possible to afford (slummy) housing at market rates, even for the very poor. Now it is…

Fifty years ago Montreal was the business centre of Canada, now that’s Toronto. That $800 rate might actually be more affordable in a less business oriented city, or even Montreal itself since it’s seen a lot of decline in that time. Having said that, there’s zero debate rents are out of control. I own a triplex and every time a unit turns over and i do my research on rent i get a bit shocked. I’ve found myself legit…

A business center doesn't have to be expensive. That’s made to happen because housing isn’t allowed to be built in sufficient quantity, not a necessary consequence of success.

Re: Finland's zero homeless strategy (2021)

#349

Post by mmooss » Sat, Jan 11, 2025, 4:56 AM UTC

dyauspitr wrote: post #215

mmooss wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

India is overwhelmed with poverty far beyond anything I've seen in the US. The people of India started from even worse poverty and have generally made progress (especially since recently-deceased PM Singh). I'm not criticizing. But holding forth India's culture [1] as a model of preventing homelessness is pretty incredible. [1] India may have the largest, most diverse collection of 'cultures' within one national bord…

I’m talking about Indian homeless people in the US.

You said the claimed lack of Indian homeless in the US was a consequence of culture. Indians in India presumably have the same culture, and lots of homeless.

Re: Finland's zero homeless strategy (2021)

#350

Post by mmooss » Sat, Jan 11, 2025, 4:58 AM UTC

thfuran wrote: post #205

mmooss wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really. People deliberately persuade the public of things all the time. Some persuade them of absolutely false, awful things with regularity.

When you say "things", I assume you don't mean "to change deeply held values and cultural traditions".

Sure, like women getting educated, working, and having equal rights? Universal literacy and education? Instant global telecommunications? Democracy? ... I think it can be done!