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Manjaro Linux prepares to enable telemetry by default

forum.manjaro.org

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Re: Manjaro Linux prepares to enable telemetry by default

#81

Post by yjftsjthsd-h »

dingnuts wrote: post #58
talldayo wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because Archinstall is scary, even if you could train an elementary-schooler to use it. Manjaro just repackages the same thing with a harder-to-use and more confusing GUI which people are more willing to give a spin.

I first used Arch over ten years ago and nobody told me about archinstall until a few weeks ago! I was using Ubuntu out of laziness because I was tired of manually installing Arch every time I got a new machine (until now, I use Arch (again, btw)). I wonder how many Manjaro users are like me, and just don't realize that Arch ships an installer now.

> I first used Arch over ten years ago and nobody told me about archinstall until a few weeks ago!

It wasn't really an official option ten years ago; https://archlinux.org/news/installation-medium-with-installe... puts it in 2021 (though that's just when it was added to official install media; I assume it was available in some capacity before that)

Re: Manjaro Linux prepares to enable telemetry by default

#82

Post by SahAssar »

ranger_danger wrote: post #68
Nullabillity wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consent needs to be freely given; you can't nudge users into it and you can't hold access ransom over it. There's no way what you're suggesting would fly.

I'm not an expert and not on either side, but couldn't a notice like "by agreeing to these terms you allow us to turn on telemetry by default, and you are free to simply not use this software instead" be allowed?

Nope, consent cannot be a prerequisite of using the service/software, if it is available in the EU (or UK, since they grandfathered in GDPR after brexit) it must be usable with or without consent.

That is the reason many local non-EU ad-supported businesses (like local papers in the US) outright block all EU traffic. For example if I go to https://www.chicagotribune.com/ I get a blank page saying "This content is not available in your region".

Manjaro could do something similar by just blocking EU users from downloading it.

Re: Manjaro Linux prepares to enable telemetry by default

#83

Post by _heimdall »

codedokode wrote: post #43
_heimdall wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree it should always be opt-in, but there are plenty of reasons this data could help them make Majaro better. Their install process likely gives them data already on things like user hardware, Intel vs AMD for example. Telemetry could help find performance issues though, like if one processor type is always slow to boot or if AMD graphics cards have frame rate issues with certain tasks.

> but there are plenty of reasons this data could help them make Majaro better Then they should ask for a permission first. > Telemetry could help find performance issues though You don't need to have telemetry enabled for everyone, just find volunteers who are interested in contributing data, or make a performance test app and let users submit the report. Also, as I understand, they don't collect framerate in curren…

I don't disagree, it should be opt-in.

> Also, as I understand, they don't collect framerate in current version.

That seems reasonable, I haven't used Manjaro for a couple years so I didn't take the time to see exactly what they want to track. That's just an example though, they wouldn't bother collecting the data if there is actually no value to them collecting it. I haven't seen anything about them selling data, so I'd expect the value is in improving the product.

Re: Manjaro Linux prepares to enable telemetry by default

#84

Post by fransje26 »

ranger_danger wrote: post #73
Retr0id wrote: post #18

The less I know about users of the software I write, the better. > we need at least some data about how Manjaro is being used by so many people around the world in order to show that the project has a future and also to plan for that future. Charitably, this implies they want to plan around things like infrastructure scaling. Why can't they just look at present demands on their infrastructure? (i.e. why bother with a…

> The less I know about users of the software I write, the better. Said no successful project ever.

Isn't the Windows release cycle based on slapping a new clunky interface on top of the old one, independently of what users want or say?

Re: Manjaro Linux prepares to enable telemetry by default

#85

Post by ranger_danger »

philistine wrote: post #79
ranger_danger wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not an expert and not on either side, but couldn't a notice like "by agreeing to these terms you allow us to turn on telemetry by default, and you are free to simply not use this software instead" be allowed?

Absolutely NOT!

Why not? Can you cite a specific law text ?

Re: Manjaro Linux prepares to enable telemetry by default

#86

Post by Kwpolska »

timbit42 wrote: post #62
talldayo wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because Archinstall is scary, even if you could train an elementary-schooler to use it. Manjaro just repackages the same thing with a harder-to-use and more confusing GUI which people are more willing to give a spin.

Isn't EndeavourOS quite a bit better? It's ranked higher on DistroWatch.com and its Visitor Rating is 8.48 compared to Manjaro's 8.07.

DistroWatch ratings are completely pointless and meaningless.

Re: Manjaro Linux prepares to enable telemetry by default

#87

Post by timbit42 »

Kwpolska wrote: post #86
timbit42 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't EndeavourOS quite a bit better? It's ranked higher on DistroWatch.com and its Visitor Rating is 8.48 compared to Manjaro's 8.07.

DistroWatch ratings are completely pointless and meaningless.

The rankings are but the ratings aren't.

Re: Manjaro Linux prepares to enable telemetry by default

#88

Post by hx8 »

jeroenhd wrote: post #72
devit wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They can host all the default mirrors themselves, either by serving the actual data (with a CDN) or by redirecting requests to a 3rd party mirror by GeoIP.

Which would be an insanely expensive way to collect very little usable information. Mirrors are run for free by volunteers, a worldwide CDN to replace free mirrors would be prohibitively costly for a relatively small distro like Manjaro.

Wouldn't the cost of the service scale basically linearly with the user base? So a small distro would have smaller costs?

I agree with the core point that tracking users via package updates is a bad idea, but I don't think this specific argument is very great.

Re: Manjaro Linux prepares to enable telemetry by default

#89

Post by [deleted] »

Nullabillity wrote: post #59
sealeck wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My understanding (and I am not a lawyer) is that under European data protection law the important thing is to obtain user consent for this; I think there's a very reasonable argument that informing the user that you collect telemetry and that if they wish to avoid this they should just build their own copy of the software (which provides a very easy to access opt out which should satisfy everyone). Although EU privac…

Consent needs to be freely given; you can't nudge users into it and you can't hold access ransom over it. There's no way what you're suggesting would fly.

[deleted]

Re: Manjaro Linux prepares to enable telemetry by default

#90

Post by sealeck »

ranger_danger wrote: post #67
sealeck wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My understanding (and I am not a lawyer) is that under European data protection law the important thing is to obtain user consent for this; I think there's a very reasonable argument that informing the user that you collect telemetry and that if they wish to avoid this they should just build their own copy of the software (which provides a very easy to access opt out which should satisfy everyone). Although EU privac…

I don't think a "reasonable person" from the perspective of a court (non-developer, non-technical, end-user) can be expected to know (or even learn) how to compile software in this way, not to mention other downsides it has (like lack of updates and possibility to create new bugs) so I don't think this would be allowed, but it's up to a judge to decide on a case by case basis, not us armchair experts.

> I don't think a "reasonable person" from the perspective of a court (non-developer, non-technical, end-user) can be expected to know (or even learn) how to compile software in this way

I mean I don't think the EU can oblige you to make your software available to people who don't know how to use a computer.

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