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Cognizant found guilty of discriminating against non-Indian employees

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Re: Cognizant found guilty of discriminating against non-Indian employees

#451
post #295

The worst HR case I ever got involved in was a semi-onshore (Indian) development team who couldn't deal with having a female (Indian) tech lead. She was eminently qualified for the role, but they would attempt to undermine her at every turn, speak over her, hold meetings without her, always going over her head... Caste did not appear to be a factor; it seemed to be good old fashioned sexism.

Who are "they"? How did the complaint move forward? I'm Indian and seen too many cases of this and the bad guys always win.

They = an all-male dev team, and it wasn't a complaint. The lead never complained. Probably considered herself very lucky to have landed in a lead role and didn't want to rock the boat. They were all working for an outsourcer who we (the client) had engaged. However, it became apparent to us (the client) that this was happening, in our offices, even if it wasn't to our employees. We did an immediate soft intervention of placing a permanent (non-Indian) colleague into the team in a scrum master type role, who did a great job of facilitating meetings fairly and basically telling the men (boys, frankly) to shut up once in a while. We probably broke a rule by unspokenly deciding that the scrum master had to be non-Indian. Meanwhile, HR cogitated and came to the conclusion that we had no contractual right to invoke any process on the men as they weren't our direct employees. However, we did have the right to ask that people be replaced if we were not satisfied with performance. Cue debate on what constitutes performance. Cue debate on whether the project could take the hit of losing its whole dev team all at once. This all took a long time, as we believed there was a chance that the intervention would work if given time. Maybe this was a teachable moment? And aside from the appalling attitude, they were decent devs with a lot of difficult-to-replace knowledge. Not gonna lie, we hoped the problem would go away if we did the bare minimum "fix". Communication improved, but it was an uphill battle.

As it happened, fate intervened, and wider organizational spasms caused the project to be mothballed. We had to give notice to the whole dev team, including the lead. Fortunately, this was a megacorp, and other projects swiftly moved in, and new work orders were drafted. This gave us an opportunity to approve the team sheet for the outsourced roles. The female tech lead was waved on through. The troglodytes were rejected. The reason was stated. We received a duly grovelling "this will never happen again" response from the account manager. They never worked for us again under my watch, but I believe they were simply rotated on to another client rather than receiving any material comeuppance.

So, they kind of got away with it - but also kind of didn't.

Re: Cognizant found guilty of discriminating against non-Indian employees

#452

My guess would be that a lot of non-Indians at these companies are rejected on the basis of "vibes"; which is slightly different from racism as I explain below, although it probably ends up having the same net effect as overt racism. As an Indian, I've observed that collectivism and subservience towards authority figures are taught as virtues; this obviously makes it quite easy for employers to extract unreasonable d…

There's probably a really interesting, bit potentially controversial topic to be discussed here. As a Non-Indian, I'm quite aware/familiar with this kind of culture you speak of within Indian culture in the workplace and, to be blunt, if I were applying for a role as say a high level product manager (my current gig) and there was a native-born/raised Indian person as the hiring manager, I would at the very least be v…

I've seen this firsthand ... in the scenario you described, you wouldn't get it.

Re: Cognizant found guilty of discriminating against non-Indian employees

#453

My guess would be that a lot of non-Indians at these companies are rejected on the basis of "vibes"; which is slightly different from racism as I explain below, although it probably ends up having the same net effect as overt racism. As an Indian, I've observed that collectivism and subservience towards authority figures are taught as virtues; this obviously makes it quite easy for employers to extract unreasonable d…

These "vibes" extend further than that. Region/district/city/town/village/neighborhood/familial relation is the breakdown that I've seen. I've known of qualified Indians not applying for new roles because the hiring manager is from a different part of India (Tamil Nadu vs Uttar Pradesh, for example). They know they're not going to get it. There's also the caste system to take in consideration. The ones at the top are all inexplicably Brahmin and would never promote a non-Brahmin to their level.

I've seen all this OUTSIDE of the US, in a non-Indian Asian country that had a high number of Indian software developers in a shared service centre.

Re: Cognizant found guilty of discriminating against non-Indian employees

#454

My guess would be that a lot of non-Indians at these companies are rejected on the basis of "vibes"; which is slightly different from racism as I explain below, although it probably ends up having the same net effect as overt racism. As an Indian, I've observed that collectivism and subservience towards authority figures are taught as virtues; this obviously makes it quite easy for employers to extract unreasonable d…

This obviously not true as there are plenty of other Asian countries where " collectivism and subservience towards authority figures are taught as virtues", but most Indian managers mostly hires Indians nevertheless.

It is a very observable and simple fact, why spin it?

Re: Cognizant found guilty of discriminating against non-Indian employees

#455
I was at one point located in Plano, Texas which has a large Indian IT community. When my job search started around eight years ago fresh out of school with a masters degree I was passed up by every IT firm in the area. This is a hard and controversial topic to discuss, and I apologize if anyone find my words here offensive. But the pattern I recognized was if the interviewers were Indian I would not be passing the interview. I have no proof of this. But my Indian peers at my school who applied to the same firms with similar credentials and skill level had little trouble.

Re: Cognizant found guilty of discriminating against non-Indian employees

#456
post #183
post #54

How to fight back when you see this happening at line management level, but not yet proliferated to upper management? Indian product owner taking mostly to Indian peer developers, bypassing normal communication channels. Indians being friendly with each other and stone cold with the rest. Indians bringing Indian jokes to the table, with no outsider hoping to understand these. Indians bonding to go to Indian restauran…

> How to fight back when you see this happening at line management level, but not yet proliferated to upper management? Vote with your feet, if you don't like it?

This will just exacerbate the problem though? There will be more and more Indians in the company...

Re: Cognizant found guilty of discriminating against non-Indian employees

#457

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Caste is not the driving factor in Indian culture.

Why are skin lightening products sales increasing every year? It's expected to double in the next 10 years. https://edition.cnn.com/interactive/2021/11/health/skin-ligh...

I thought caste was unrelated to skin color. Is this not true?

Re: Cognizant found guilty of discriminating against non-Indian employees

#458
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's telling that we're quick to ascribe anything bad to "human nature" while balking at the notion that anything positive might also be human nature. Greed and exploitation? Yes, absolutely, human nature, nothing you can do about it. Racism? Totally human nature, just look at this random animal species. Cooperation, trust, hospitality? No, those must be unique virtues expressed only by the pure of heart or the naive…

> Nevermind that "race" as a concept did not exist in the modern sense in Western cultures prior to colonization despite the exposure to other peoples with other skin tones from other parts of the world. https://x.com/MohabMo5102/status/1494070281731809281?mx=2 Also someone please tell me why were harems in Mamlukian and Ottoman courts largely filled with Slavic and Circassian men and women?

I'm not sure what the tweet has to do with your question.

To your question: I'm referring to modern Western racism which is built on the scientific racism that became popular when there were economic incentives to explain why chattel slavery is okay when you do it with some people when it's otherwise not okay to do with others. This was downstream from a massive need for cheap labor in the colonies to produce exotic goods to export to Europe for profit.

I don't know why you're asking for an explanation of random unsourced and unqualified historical factoids (without mentioning e.g. which harems, which courts, where and in what time period, which seem kind of important specifics when using vague generalisations like "largely") - maybe ask whoever you learned that from unless you're "just asking questions".

But if you want a general answer to "why is there discrimination against groups outside the imperial core" mine would be that it is easier to justify an exploitative power hiearchy, especially one that subjugates the majority of "its own" people, if you declare outside forces as non-human or sub-human to prevent fraternization which might challenge your rule.

You can easily find this happening in sexism/"patriarchy": men are humans, women are different because they can get pregnant so they are more emotional, more deceitful, stupider, incapable of abstract thought, too easy to manipulate to deserve voting rights, more likely to cheat on their partners because they want the best genes for their offspring, naturally nurturing and caring, inherently better at social skills, inherently risk averse and unfit for leadership, etc etc whatever whatever. Or, as I already said, racism: white people are humans, Asians are different because they're clever but have no soul and operate like a hive mind, Black people are different because they're stronger but impulsive and child-like and must be disciplined to protect them from themselves, Arabs are different because they're deceitful and uncultured and only know how to steal and destroy and breed, etc etc whatever whatever. Heck, you can even find it in the trappings of "enlightened" critiques of democracy (or defense of capitalism, i.e. the centralisation of control of "capital"): us studied high-IQ people of wealth of course should get a say in things but most people allowed to vote are very stupid, easy to manipulate, only seek to reaffirm their biases, bordering on mentally incapable of managing their own life but also of course completely at fault for everything they suffer, etc etc whatever whatever. All of these are bullshit just-so generalisation that just happen to neatly explain why we (men, white folks, academics, people of wealth, etc) deserve to be in charge and anyone who isn't in that group not only does not deserve to have any say but it is in fact in their best interest for us to be in charge of their life too and if this just happens to benefit us immensely, that is only by pure circumstance and what harm does it do anyway if that is the case.

Also, I'm not talking about individual bigotry or stereotypes. "Scientific" racism existed to help perpetuate a system of power relations by justifying the ownership and subjugation of groups of people. Caste systems does and medieval European feudalism did much the same. "Tribalism" however is a red herring because in tribal systems, society is confined to the tribe itself and interactions between tribes are, essentially, diplomacy. Once society expands past a tribe, we usually use the term "nepotism" (or "networking" if you want a positive spin).

Re: Cognizant found guilty of discriminating against non-Indian employees

#459
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Before there was race there were tribes. Which goes back to the very roots of humanity.

There were also species, denisovans, Neanderthals etc.

Also, we know that some of those pre-human species interbed and co-mingled with each other. The dynamics between tribes is also completely different from modern racism.

Just ascribing behavior we observe in humans to "human nature" is a thought-terminating cliché and prevents looking deeper into how we got here and why. Modern society didn't pop into existence fully baked and that goes as much for the good (which we rightly laud as important achievements we need to preserve) as it does for the bad (which we often just describe as "human nature" to avoid challenging our assumptions).

If everything bad is human nature, there's literally no way to improve things. If everything bad is human nature but only for certain people, that's one step away from arguing that the only way to improve things is through genocide.

Re: Cognizant found guilty of discriminating against non-Indian employees

#460

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are skin lightening products sales increasing every year? It's expected to double in the next 10 years. https://edition.cnn.com/interactive/2021/11/health/skin-ligh...

I thought caste was unrelated to skin color. Is this not true?

It depends, some "higher" caste people have light skin compared to others.
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