Why do you think people are poor? • Hacker News Board

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#161

Post by dkokelley » Fri, Jun 22, 2012, 3:16 AM UTC

Produce wrote: post #107

She's completely correct that it's the culture of the rich which make them rich. What she's completely wrong about is that it's their morality that makes it so. We, the rich, the middle and upper classes, are the ones who fund prisons, we are the ones who do not share our food with our neighbors, we are the ones who refuse to mix with them and share our culture. It's like Terrence McKenna said - "Culture is not your…

> Yet without that farmer growing his crops how would you eat? Without that garbage collector removing waste, how would you stay healthy? Without that secretary, how would your business function properly? It's these value judgements which really hurt us.

So, our society (which may or may not be structured around our competing cultures) has a mechanism for valuing these goods. We have the principles of economics - supply and demand. The things you mentioned are all objectively good to have. They're essential, even. But we've become very good at generating these goods. We've studied crops and health to maximize the good that these things provide, and we can now generate them with fairly little skill and effort. The reason that people who perform these ESSENTIAL tasks earn so little is that the supply of people ready and willing to do them is so great compared to the amount we need them to produce. If the supply of people who could perform these jobs decreased, or the demand for the goods they produce increased, the workers could demand higher wages.

I don't disagree that there are many factors that can and are used by "the rich" to keep "the poor" down, but I disagree that how society values these basic goods is really a significant source of this discrimination.

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#162

Post by herdrick » Fri, Jun 22, 2012, 3:17 AM UTC

sparkie wrote: post #148

Because the system makes sure people stay poor. How many of you were taught in school that if you pay yourself a minimum wage and make up the rest as a dividend/bonus you can avoid paying a significant amount of tax (legally)? Or how many of you were taught how to become "employable" so that you can earn the same amount of money and pay considerably more tax, unavoidably - because you aren't in control of your own fi…

It sounds like you're talking more about things that could help middle class people. Very few poor people have issues that could be helped with "pay [themselves] a minimum wage and make up the rest as a dividend".

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#163

Post by dmix » Fri, Jun 22, 2012, 3:27 AM UTC

tokenadult wrote: post #20

planetguy wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This shouldn't be in the least bit controversial; it's well known that a great many human characteristics are extremely heritable, and it would be absolutely shocking if none of these characteristics turned out to be helpful or harmful in becoming rich or poor. But since you want sources, here we go: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21826061 "Genome-wide association studies establish that human intelligence is high…

it's well known that a great many human characteristics are extremely heritable Methinks you are not completely familiar with what "extremely heritable" really implies in studies of human behavioral genetics. (I attribute this to a knowledge gap, as I have generally found your other comments about natural science to be highly reliable, if they are close to the field you work in.) I am blessed with the opportunity to…

Excellent reply, reading through a couple of the links.

Comments like these remind me of HN of the past.

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#164

Post by sparkie » Fri, Jun 22, 2012, 3:28 AM UTC

wtn wrote: post #159

sparkie wrote: post #148

Because the system makes sure people stay poor. How many of you were taught in school that if you pay yourself a minimum wage and make up the rest as a dividend/bonus you can avoid paying a significant amount of tax (legally)? Or how many of you were taught how to become "employable" so that you can earn the same amount of money and pay considerably more tax, unavoidably - because you aren't in control of your own fi…

> How many of you were taught in school that if you pay yourself a minimum wage and make up the rest as a dividend/bonus you can avoid paying a significant amount of tax (legally)? You shouldn't do that, it's not permissible under current tax rules… IRS requires that officer shareholders be paid a reasonable salary, and if you're making enough money to pay dividends, minimum wage will be hard to justify as "reasonabl…

IRS only applies to US companies. Each country has it's own different loopholes that allow you to pay less tax if you're earning more. The big corps pay far less tax than they should.

Note to term, "tax avoidance". "Tax evasion" is illegal, but there are plenty of legal ways to avoid tax, many of which I'm not aware of myself, but will be grateful for anyone willing to share.

And that's a big part of it - people don't share the knowledge - it's "insider" knowledge, and you aren't in the club. The fewer that know, the more money those who do, can make.

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#165

Post by cantankerous » Fri, Jun 22, 2012, 3:33 AM UTC

gms7777 wrote: post #11

I remember reading an article at one point about a study done on high school students. I can't remember exact details, but there was a program where students in areas with bad high schools could apply to be sent to better high schools. If I remember correctly, admission to the program wasn't merit based, but first-come, first-serve. The study compared the students who got into the program, and the students who applie…

My question to your takeaway point would be, if these people are so motivated that they do better in courses, why do they stay so poor? Either merit is being suppressed by social forces (most definitely), or merit isn't the only requisite thing for social ascent.

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#166

Post by pradocchia » Fri, Jun 22, 2012, 3:34 AM UTC

planetguy wrote: post #139

WiseWeasel wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would be the point? It's not an issue we're equipped to address, so what good would come from dwelling on the topic, even discounting the risk of muddying the author's point with divisive claims?

It makes all the difference in the world. If people are poor because that's the best they're genetically equipped to do , then there's not much we can do about it. Look at pigeons. They eat out of garbage cans. They die within a few years. They get run over by cars rather a lot. But we don't really worry about this, because they're just fucking pigeons .

if that's the best they're genetically equipped to do

Gosh I'd be ashamed to make such an argument. It's a) incredibly loaded, and b) carries incredible risk in the event that someone takes it to heart and actually starts acting along those lines. Though perhaps you are just not used to your words having any force, and have yet to learn circumspection.

And I sense a certain hubris: "I am not a pigeon." Well, so you think.

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#167

Post by hij7898 » Fri, Jun 22, 2012, 3:35 AM UTC

sparkie wrote: post #164

wtn wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How many of you were taught in school that if you pay yourself a minimum wage and make up the rest as a dividend/bonus you can avoid paying a significant amount of tax (legally)? You shouldn't do that, it's not permissible under current tax rules… IRS requires that officer shareholders be paid a reasonable salary, and if you're making enough money to pay dividends, minimum wage will be hard to justify as "reasonabl…

IRS only applies to US companies. Each country has it's own different loopholes that allow you to pay less tax if you're earning more. The big corps pay far less tax than they should. Note to term, "tax avoidance". "Tax evasion" is illegal, but there are plenty of legal ways to avoid tax, many of which I'm not aware of myself, but will be grateful for anyone willing to share. And that's a big part of it - people don'…

1) Wealth is not zero-sum.

2) You're recommending that we defraud our federal government in your original post.

Just stop.

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#168

Post by shrub » Fri, Jun 22, 2012, 3:36 AM UTC

mindcrime wrote: post #59

RyanIyengar wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The argument has never been that it is impossible to rise from poverty. The argument is that it is demonstrably massively unlikely.

The argument has never been that it is impossible to rise from poverty. The argument is that it is demonstrably massively unlikely. So the question then, as I see it, is "how do we make it more likely?" I mean, if I can overcome all sorts of obstacles that are frequently cited as reasons people remain in poverty, and I am not anybody particularly special, then why shouldn't anybody else be able to? What separates a k…

"how do we make it more likely?"

Sometimes it's not just a matter of being intrinsically motivated, and no matter what you sacrifice, you never seem to have enough.

"Many young people, who have the ability to attend post secondary institutions, will not get that opportunity because of limited family financial resources." - http://rotarycs.org/local.aspx

This is my anecdotal story. Not only did I fit into that category, I was also not initially intrinsically motivated. But the good people at the Rotary Club accessed my high risk of dropping out and gave me a "Stay in School" scholarship.

Having people believe in me and put $5000 on it - well, I can't say enough good things about them. I believe I would have given up on school in grade 7 (and I still missed a large chunk of it (long story)), but instead here I am with a BSc in Computer Science with "Great Distinction" instead. I imagine I would still be a min-wage Courtesy Clerk at the local IGA if I hadn't been given this opportunity.

Part of the trouble is that only 3 of these scholarships were given out when there were plenty of other kids who could have used them too. Not necessarily hand outs, but a hand up. These scholarships come with mentoring and support to develop motivation in the student to not only stay in school, but to do well at it.

It's not that I think they owe me a scholarship and mentoring, but just that it's not really my fault I was born in to a situation where I would have otherwise had virtually no idea and no means of escaping. I suppose maybe I could have tried worked for it all by myself and for myself (and I did pay for the rest of my schooling myself), but I can't imagine how I would have known to without intervention and I'm not sure I wouldn't have worked myself to death before getting anywhere.

I wish I had more profound and coherent things to say about this, but it's a subject that is pretty close to home and I could start rambling pretty quick.

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#169

Post by rsl7 » Fri, Jun 22, 2012, 3:36 AM UTC

scarmig wrote: post #72

gms7777 wrote: post #11

I remember reading an article at one point about a study done on high school students. I can't remember exact details, but there was a program where students in areas with bad high schools could apply to be sent to better high schools. If I remember correctly, admission to the program wasn't merit based, but first-come, first-serve. The study compared the students who got into the program, and the students who applie…

Why is it, then, that despite the school someone goes to not mattering in outcomes once you control for external factors, rich people still disproportionately prefer to send their kids to private schools, and are willing to pay 20-30k per year over a decade to do so? I could totally believe that it's totally irrational on the rich parents' part: kids and health are places where people lose much sense of rationality a…

Your kid can't be captain of the squash team if there is no squash team.

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#170

Post by saraid216 » Fri, Jun 22, 2012, 3:38 AM UTC

randomdata wrote: post #155

sp332 wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, the article contradicts this idea. As the course went on, aggressiveness and threats were used less often in arguments, and the debates became more civil. Interpersonal interaction was one of the skills that these people did not pick up in all their years "on the street", but learned in the class.

So you would say that aggressive and uncivil contact was not a learned behaviour? If I was without teachers and materials and I discovered the square wheel, does the fact that people with teachers are aware of the round wheel discount everything I achieved? I think not. It is still amazing, even if others can do it better. I guess I'm just not quite seeing where you are coming from. It's not a question of what kind o…

> So you would say that aggressive and uncivil contact was not a learned behaviour?

I would say it is uneducated behavior. Yes, everyone learns naturally; that's what it is to exist. Education is eduction--the drawing out--not mere "learning".