Why do you think people are poor? • Hacker News Board

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#71

Post by Mz » Thu, Jun 21, 2012, 10:17 PM UTC

yummyfajitas wrote: post #69

Mz wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Real education is the path out of poverty. It always has been. Real education teaches people to think more effectively. Not everything called "education" fits that requirement. The poor are often subjected to training rather than education, which very often doesn't resolve anything. Training tends to reinforce the social trap they live in. I suggest you not only read the article but also the book it is about. It is o…

"Real education" sounds dangerously close to a "true Scotsman".

Sorry? I don't think so. I have seen this discussed many times over the years. Genuinely teaching people to think more effectively is real education. What goes on in some schools is more akin to brainwashing, which is the opposite of teaching people to think for themselves.

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#72

Post by scarmig » Thu, Jun 21, 2012, 10:17 PM UTC

gms7777 wrote: post #11

I remember reading an article at one point about a study done on high school students. I can't remember exact details, but there was a program where students in areas with bad high schools could apply to be sent to better high schools. If I remember correctly, admission to the program wasn't merit based, but first-come, first-serve. The study compared the students who got into the program, and the students who applie…

Why is it, then, that despite the school someone goes to not mattering in outcomes once you control for external factors, rich people still disproportionately prefer to send their kids to private schools, and are willing to pay 20-30k per year over a decade to do so?

I could totally believe that it's totally irrational on the rich parents' part: kids and health are places where people lose much sense of rationality and perspective. But it's still worth considering that the people who are typically most invested and knowledgeable about their kids and the benefits of a good education do usually go for private school if they have the means to.

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#73

Post by clarky07 » Thu, Jun 21, 2012, 10:19 PM UTC

gms7777 wrote: post #11

I remember reading an article at one point about a study done on high school students. I can't remember exact details, but there was a program where students in areas with bad high schools could apply to be sent to better high schools. If I remember correctly, admission to the program wasn't merit based, but first-come, first-serve. The study compared the students who got into the program, and the students who applie…

This is part of Freakonomics (http://www.amazon.com/Freakonomics-Economist-Explores-Hidden...). Though you could have obviously seen it elsewhere.

In the book, it was referring to lottery based admission to the better schools. The result was that it didn't matter whether the students won the lottery or not. They performed equally well (on whatever generic criteria you use to judge academic performance in hs, most likely state standardized tests). The point being that students who cared enough to want to be in the better school would do well no matter where they were.

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#74

Post by Peaker » Thu, Jun 21, 2012, 10:22 PM UTC

planetguy wrote: post #9

calinet6 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does it now? Cite your sources, please.

This shouldn't be in the least bit controversial; it's well known that a great many human characteristics are extremely heritable, and it would be absolutely shocking if none of these characteristics turned out to be helpful or harmful in becoming rich or poor. But since you want sources, here we go: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21826061 "Genome-wide association studies establish that human intelligence is high…

Note that correlations between populations are not transitive like that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecological_fallacy

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#75

Post by roguecoder » Thu, Jun 21, 2012, 10:24 PM UTC

grassclip wrote: post #36

zzeroparticle wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did find the lowering of barriers that would impede access to education like providing free meals, free transportation, and access to free babysitting to have been really helpful. In a way, it's like lowering the activation energy required to get motivated students into an environment where they can flourish.

I feel that the desire for an education is intrinsic. If you want to learn, you will (as evidenced by the study gms was talking about). Simply having access to all those goodies won't lead to motivation. Unmotivated students in that cushy environment would just lead to them being happier and more content, not make them work harder.

But you only have so much energy and learning takes energy. I know from personal experience that the more stressed I am, the more time and energy I had to put in to getting enough calories this week the less I have to spend on learning. Being hungry or sleep deprived makes everything harder. It can be challenging just to summon the energy to make basic day-to-day decisions, much less reach out and learn new things. It's why free school breakfasts and lunches do such good things for educational outcomes.

The easier it is to learn the more people will be able to get over the hump. It won't ever be everyone, but it's basic behavioral economics: the easier it is to get the same payoff the more people will do it.

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#76

Post by drivebyacct2 » Thu, Jun 21, 2012, 10:27 PM UTC

planetguy wrote: post #9

calinet6 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does it now? Cite your sources, please.

This shouldn't be in the least bit controversial; it's well known that a great many human characteristics are extremely heritable, and it would be absolutely shocking if none of these characteristics turned out to be helpful or harmful in becoming rich or poor. But since you want sources, here we go: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21826061 "Genome-wide association studies establish that human intelligence is high…

Wow, two distint populations correlations used to conclude heredity causes/affects poorness. Where to even start on why that's poor reasoning.

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#77

Post by thematt » Thu, Jun 21, 2012, 10:30 PM UTC

scarmig wrote: post #72

gms7777 wrote: post #11

I remember reading an article at one point about a study done on high school students. I can't remember exact details, but there was a program where students in areas with bad high schools could apply to be sent to better high schools. If I remember correctly, admission to the program wasn't merit based, but first-come, first-serve. The study compared the students who got into the program, and the students who applie…

Why is it, then, that despite the school someone goes to not mattering in outcomes once you control for external factors, rich people still disproportionately prefer to send their kids to private schools, and are willing to pay 20-30k per year over a decade to do so? I could totally believe that it's totally irrational on the rich parents' part: kids and health are places where people lose much sense of rationality a…

It's because it does matter to the outcome, if you consider the outcome to be more than just GPA. GPA is not the best indicator of whether it's a worthwhile investment. The selection of a private school takes in to account additional factors like the environment you learn in, the connections you make, the college prospects you get and also the mere existence of religion.

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#78

Post by roguecoder » Thu, Jun 21, 2012, 10:30 PM UTC

anonymoushn wrote: post #33

mbetter wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In science, they are quite highly correlated.

This hasn't been true historically. Almost all of the times we have been confident that we understood something, we have been wrong.

That is because almost all the time we are wrong, whether we were confident or not. However, we were generally less-wrong that were were before.

I recommend Asimov's article on the matter: http://chem.tufts.edu/AnswersInScience/RelativityofWrong.htm

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#79

Post by drivebyacct2 » Thu, Jun 21, 2012, 10:32 PM UTC

sliverstorm wrote: post #66

kaonashi wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Social Darwinism, really? I thought that went out of style with eugenics.

I don't believe the comment you are replying to is Social Darwinism. As I understand it, that particular view set is actually a belief/value system, while the comment you reply to is merely an observation that assuming variety, there will always be a bottom rung.

The comment directly implies that some people are born predisposed to being poor on a genetic level, which is... absurd isn't even close to the right word.

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#80

Post by Dove » Thu, Jun 21, 2012, 10:38 PM UTC

yummyfajitas wrote: post #69

Mz wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Real education is the path out of poverty. It always has been. Real education teaches people to think more effectively. Not everything called "education" fits that requirement. The poor are often subjected to training rather than education, which very often doesn't resolve anything. Training tends to reinforce the social trap they live in. I suggest you not only read the article but also the book it is about. It is o…

"Real education" sounds dangerously close to a "true Scotsman".

The "no true Scotsman" fallacy is about moving goalposts -- about changing the definition in the middle of the argument. You have to agree on a definition, and then you can argue about whether something fits.

That is a completely different issue from arguing about definitions themselves. We can indeed hold opinions on what constitutes a true Scotsman, and even argue about which of those opinions is correct -- so long as it's the subject of the conversation.

You can't change definitions in the middle of a discussion. But you can certainly hold, support, and defend the consistent opinion that something is not a REAL education. It's not the word "real" that makes something problem. It's changing your mind.