Why do you think people are poor? • Hacker News Board

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#61

Post by Mz » Thu, Jun 21, 2012, 9:53 PM UTC

danielweber wrote: post #60

Mz wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Real education is the path out of poverty. It always has been. Real education teaches people to think more effectively. Not everything called "education" fits that requirement. The poor are often subjected to training rather than education, which very often doesn't resolve anything. Training tends to reinforce the social trap they live in. I suggest you not only read the article but also the book it is about. It is o…

Did this project have good results? Have other people successfully replicated those good results running the project themselves? I suspect, like most projects, it didn't meet both of those criteria. However, if it did, I would be extremely interested.

My recollection is that it was "yes" on both counts. But I read the book many years ago while bedridden. I strongly encourage you to read it yourself. I found the book extremely personally worthwhile.

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#62

Post by dredmorbius » Thu, Jun 21, 2012, 9:54 PM UTC

mindcrime wrote: post #45

jiggy2011 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's possible to go to an excellent school and fail to learn anything if you don't want to, especially if you have been culturally conditioned to hate school. At least a good school does provide the opportunity, from stories I've heard from people who have worked at or attended bad schools it would be an environment where it would be basically impossible to learn anything even if you wanted to.

At least a good school does provide the opportunity, from stories I've heard from people who have worked at or attended bad schools it would be an environment where it would be basically impossible to learn anything even if you wanted to. OK, this is just one anecdote, but... I grew up in a fairly rural, poor part of North Carolina, went to generic, poor to below average public schools, came from a dirt-poor family t…

And how did your peers do?

On average?

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#63

Post by WiseWeasel » Thu, Jun 21, 2012, 9:57 PM UTC

planetguy wrote: post #3

Surely genetics plays a huge role, one that's ignored in this article.

What would be the point? It's not an issue we're equipped to address, so what good would come from dwelling on the topic, even discounting the risk of muddying the author's point with divisive claims?

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#64

Post by dredmorbius » Thu, Jun 21, 2012, 10:02 PM UTC

Mz wrote: post #51

Tichy wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it actionable?

Er, sorry, is what actionable?

Something which can be acted upon, meaningfully.

Knowing that a tidal wave is headed your way when you've got safe ground that's reachable, is actionable. You can take action to change the outcome.

Knowing that, say, that within the next century the sun would go nova, or a local star would go supernova, for all practical intents, is not actionable in any manner that action could be taken which would preserve civilization / the human species.

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#65

Post by dredmorbius » Thu, Jun 21, 2012, 10:04 PM UTC

codex wrote: post #13

Evolution encourages diversity. At any given point in time and place, some people are better adapted than others. The least adapted make up at least some of the poor. By this relative definition, some poor will always be with us, even though their standard of living is rising continually.

Evolution does not "encourage" diversity.

Evolution is predicated on some distribution of genetically inheritable characteristics with differential survival / reproductive benefits. Depending on a number of other characteristics, one might end up with highly diverse, or highly homogeneous local or regional populations.

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#66

Post by sliverstorm » Thu, Jun 21, 2012, 10:07 PM UTC

kaonashi wrote: post #18

codex wrote: post #13

Evolution encourages diversity. At any given point in time and place, some people are better adapted than others. The least adapted make up at least some of the poor. By this relative definition, some poor will always be with us, even though their standard of living is rising continually.

Social Darwinism, really? I thought that went out of style with eugenics.

I don't believe the comment you are replying to is Social Darwinism. As I understand it, that particular view set is actually a belief/value system, while the comment you reply to is merely an observation that assuming variety, there will always be a bottom rung.

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#67

Post by yummyfajitas » Thu, Jun 21, 2012, 10:11 PM UTC

kaonashi wrote: post #18

codex wrote: post #13

Evolution encourages diversity. At any given point in time and place, some people are better adapted than others. The least adapted make up at least some of the poor. By this relative definition, some poor will always be with us, even though their standard of living is rising continually.

Social Darwinism, really? I thought that went out of style with eugenics.

Eugenics didn't go out of style. It's used quite successfully to prevent horrible genetic diseases.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dor_Yeshorim

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#68

Post by Mz » Thu, Jun 21, 2012, 10:14 PM UTC

dredmorbius wrote: post #64

Mz wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Er, sorry, is what actionable?

Something which can be acted upon, meaningfully. Knowing that a tidal wave is headed your way when you've got safe ground that's reachable, is actionable. You can take action to change the outcome. Knowing that, say, that within the next century the sun would go nova, or a local star would go supernova, for all practical intents, is not actionable in any manner that action could be taken which would preserve civiliza…

I know what the word actionable means. I don't know what he is asking about. Is my suggestion to read the book actionable? Yes, I think so. Is the info in the book actionable? Yes, I think so, on several fronts. But I don't know what action he wants me talking to him about.

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#69

Post by yummyfajitas » Thu, Jun 21, 2012, 10:14 PM UTC

Mz wrote: post #32

Tichy wrote: post #12

Could somebody do a TL;DR, please? I am interested, but I am not sure where the article gets to the point?

Real education is the path out of poverty. It always has been. Real education teaches people to think more effectively. Not everything called "education" fits that requirement. The poor are often subjected to training rather than education, which very often doesn't resolve anything. Training tends to reinforce the social trap they live in. I suggest you not only read the article but also the book it is about. It is o…

"Real education" sounds dangerously close to a "true Scotsman".

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#70

Post by dredmorbius » Thu, Jun 21, 2012, 10:14 PM UTC

It's about brakes, accelerators, and random (mis/good)fortune.

Brakes are the things that slow you down. Accelerators are the things that give you a boost.

Any one of us has these both imposed on us and has some degree of influence over them, though to what specific extent varies a lot.

The point of the essay (confession: I skimmed it) is that an effective education is among the more powerful accelerators which can be applied. It's actionable (lifting a concept from a thread here) in the sense that both individuals and communities / society as a whole can engage productively in efforts to increase the availability / efficacy of education.

It's a fact recognized by the father of capitalism, Adam Smith, and the founding fathers, including Thomas Jefferson.