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Why do you think people are poor?

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Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#51

Post by Mz »

Tichy wrote: post #46
Mz wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Real education is the path out of poverty. It always has been. Real education teaches people to think more effectively. Not everything called "education" fits that requirement. The poor are often subjected to training rather than education, which very often doesn't resolve anything. Training tends to reinforce the social trap they live in. I suggest you not only read the article but also the book it is about. It is o…

Is it actionable?

Er, sorry, is what actionable?

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#52

Post by gruseom »

anonymoushn wrote: post #33
mbetter wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In science, they are quite highly correlated.

This hasn't been true historically. Almost all of the times we have been confident that we understood something, we have been wrong.

That's a powerful argument for the GP.

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#53

Post by czr80 »

tokenadult wrote: post #20
planetguy wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This shouldn't be in the least bit controversial; it's well known that a great many human characteristics are extremely heritable, and it would be absolutely shocking if none of these characteristics turned out to be helpful or harmful in becoming rich or poor. But since you want sources, here we go: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21826061 "Genome-wide association studies establish that human intelligence is high…

it's well known that a great many human characteristics are extremely heritable Methinks you are not completely familiar with what "extremely heritable" really implies in studies of human behavioral genetics. (I attribute this to a knowledge gap, as I have generally found your other comments about natural science to be highly reliable, if they are close to the field you work in.) I am blessed with the opportunity to…

Thanks, these are great reads.

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#54

Post by dllthomas »

jlgreco wrote: post #38
kaonashi wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Social Darwinism, really? I thought that went out of style with eugenics.

Genetics don't have to be involved for traits to be passed on between generations. There is more to a phenotype than just the genotype. It is not a stretch to think that natural selection could apply pressure to traits that are passed on through culture and exposure to ideas.

This seems to be a nonsequitor. "Social Darwinism" isn't a single coherent movement, but those who have espoused it in various forms have only occasionally been specifically concerned with the mechanism as far as I can tell. The grandparent just said "evolution" and spoke of adaptation.

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#55

Post by ramses0 »

gms7777 wrote: post #11

I remember reading an article at one point about a study done on high school students. I can't remember exact details, but there was a program where students in areas with bad high schools could apply to be sent to better high schools. If I remember correctly, admission to the program wasn't merit based, but first-come, first-serve. The study compared the students who got into the program, and the students who applie…

Freakonomics story.

http://www.freakonomics.com/2007/10/04/more-evidence-on-the-...

I can't find the exact reference but I believe somewhere in the book they talk about the mere fact of entering your student into this lottery to go to a better school meant that the student would have better outcomes (regardless of whether they "won" the lottery or not).

The idea being that it was the mere "intent" of a parent wanting better for their child that had the most impact on student performance.

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#56

Post by RyanIyengar »

mindcrime wrote: post #45
jiggy2011 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's possible to go to an excellent school and fail to learn anything if you don't want to, especially if you have been culturally conditioned to hate school. At least a good school does provide the opportunity, from stories I've heard from people who have worked at or attended bad schools it would be an environment where it would be basically impossible to learn anything even if you wanted to.

At least a good school does provide the opportunity, from stories I've heard from people who have worked at or attended bad schools it would be an environment where it would be basically impossible to learn anything even if you wanted to. OK, this is just one anecdote, but... I grew up in a fairly rural, poor part of North Carolina, went to generic, poor to below average public schools, came from a dirt-poor family t…

The argument has never been that it is impossible to rise from poverty. The argument is that it is demonstrably massively unlikely.

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#57

Post by jlgreco »

dllthomas wrote: post #54
jlgreco wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Genetics don't have to be involved for traits to be passed on between generations. There is more to a phenotype than just the genotype. It is not a stretch to think that natural selection could apply pressure to traits that are passed on through culture and exposure to ideas.

This seems to be a nonsequitor. "Social Darwinism" isn't a single coherent movement, but those who have espoused it in various forms have only occasionally been specifically concerned with the mechanism as far as I can tell. The grandparent just said "evolution" and spoke of adaptation.

Yes, that does seem to be what has happened here.

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#58

Post by HeyLaughingBoy »

gms7777 wrote: post #47
HeyLaughingBoy wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't focus on what it doesn't do for the unmotivated. Focus instead on how it can improve the motivated. A smart, hardworking student who is hungry won't learn much. A smart, hardworking student who is exhausted after walking miles to school in winter on an empty stomach will learn even less. In the mid-80's I went to an NYC public school that used to be one of the best and by the time I went there, it was... Well l…

I understand that its easy and important to pour resources into educating the already motivated. The justification is clear, they want to be there, they want to learn, they "deserve it". Yet, unless I'm misreading your comment, it appears as if a majority of students in the worse schools appear to be in the "unmotivated" class. Heck, even in my middle/upper-middle class suburban high school, that same divide between…

Neither do I. I think it starts with group psychology: even among the non-honors students I knew quite a few who were working as hard as they could and wanted to learn. But in the larger group, they are put down because they're not doing what everyone else is doing, so the first problem is how to break the cycle of groupthink and allow people to do their own thing.

One thing we (favorite teacher and me) observed (this with 30+ year-old memory) is that one or two students in the large student body being recognized academically motivated others to work hard to get the same recognition. I graduated before I could see how far this went, but it was showing promise.

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#59

Post by mindcrime »

RyanIyengar wrote: post #56
mindcrime wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least a good school does provide the opportunity, from stories I've heard from people who have worked at or attended bad schools it would be an environment where it would be basically impossible to learn anything even if you wanted to. OK, this is just one anecdote, but... I grew up in a fairly rural, poor part of North Carolina, went to generic, poor to below average public schools, came from a dirt-poor family t…

The argument has never been that it is impossible to rise from poverty. The argument is that it is demonstrably massively unlikely.

The argument has never been that it is impossible to rise from poverty. The argument is that it is demonstrably massively unlikely.

So the question then, as I see it, is "how do we make it more likely?" I mean, if I can overcome all sorts of obstacles that are frequently cited as reasons people remain in poverty, and I am not anybody particularly special, then why shouldn't anybody else be able to? What separates a kid like me from my elementary school class-mates who are still living in poverty? And that's not exactly a rhetorical question, but it's one that I honestly don't know the answer to. The only obvious thing I can come up with is some degree of intrinsic motivation, some drive or pull that I felt, that compelled me to make the sacrifices to improve my life. But even if that were true, I'm not sure how you'd explain that.

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#60

Post by danielweber »

Mz wrote: post #32
Tichy wrote: post #12

Could somebody do a TL;DR, please? I am interested, but I am not sure where the article gets to the point?

Real education is the path out of poverty. It always has been. Real education teaches people to think more effectively. Not everything called "education" fits that requirement. The poor are often subjected to training rather than education, which very often doesn't resolve anything. Training tends to reinforce the social trap they live in. I suggest you not only read the article but also the book it is about. It is o…

Did this project have good results? Have other people successfully replicated those good results running the project themselves?

I suspect, like most projects, it didn't meet both of those criteria. However, if it did, I would be extremely interested.

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