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For advertising, Firefox now collects user data by default

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Re: For advertising, Firefox now collects user data by default

#501
post #492
post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is provably false. Safari isn’t funded by advertising, neither is Orion, or LibreWolf, or any number of other smaller open-source browsers.

According to news stories, Apple received $20 billion dollars in 2022 from Google to make Google the default search in Safari. https://www.theverge.com/2024/5/2/24147007/google-paid-apple...

Which is easy money that Apple uses for the company as a whole. They don’t make Safari because of Google’s money nor is it likely they would stop developing it if that money was no longer paid.

Re: For advertising, Firefox now collects user data by default

#502

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe it's time to move away from whole html/css/js, http and browsers? Let's build something that is Ad resistant from the start. Something that uses native technologies. Edit: We need something that does not need backing of large corporations or huge funding to access the web. Internet was always simple. We have become over dependent on browsers and http stack.

Yes. However, different protocols can be used for different purposes, but will need to be FOSS as well as not overly complicated specifications. Some older protocols such as IRC, NNTP, Gopher, and email (especially plain text email and not HTML email), is one thing to be usable. There are also some newer protocols and file formats for some uses, e.g.: Gemini protocol/file-format, Scorpion protocol/file-format, Sparta…

Comments about gemini://xavi.privatedns.org/small-web-browser.gmi :

I do not believe that just using this existing HTTP/HTML is the way to do it (and other people also agree with me about this), although it is one way to do it, and can be combined with others.

Such a "small web" browser could be designed to support multiple protocols and file formats. So, in addition to HTTP(S), also Gopher, Gemini, Spartan, Scorpion, Nex, local files, and possibly NNTP (although this would not be as good as a dedicated news reader software, it would at least allow to read articles from a NNTP server without needing to set up your dedicated NNTP client software; Lynx also supports NNTP).

> While I do think HTTP/1.1 is good enough for most tasks [...] there are several aspects that I do not particularly like: Cookies, User agent, Referer, Etag, Cross-origin requests

I do not like these features much either. HTTP/1.1 still is good enough for many tasks, although it is still messy in some ways and more complicated than it could be, although for the purpose of accessing services that use HTTP, it will be good enough for this purpose (which is what the article describes doing). (One feature of HTTP that I think is useful that Gemini, Spartan, and Gopher lack (but Scorpion does not lack) is Range requests, although that isn't that useful for a browser and is more useful for a download manager (including command-line programs such as curl). Multiple ranges in a single request seems an unnecessarily complexity to me, though.)

> Support a small subset of HTTP/1.1, supporting GET/POST, while effectively removing support for most HTTP headers.

Agree. (You could also suppport adding arbitrary extra headers by user configuration; e.g. the user could specify that they want to add a "Accept-Language" header or a "DNT" header or whatever other arbitrary headers they might want.)

> Support a subset of HTML5, so that embedded images, audio and video are possible.

Mostly agree. Embedded images would be useful to be able to switch on/off by the user; if off then they appear as links. Embedded audio/video is probably not useful at all; I would have and commands to be displayed as a list of links (the audio/video can be viewed if you follow the links).

> Support modern CSS, possibly leaving deprecated or complex features out.

I would probably leave out most of the features, although you do not necessarily have to do so. However, important would be to allow disabling CSS (and ensure that "complying with the requirements above" (see below) means that it is guaranteed to work correctly if the user chooses to disable CSS).

> Support NO JavaScript at all, as JavaScript is one of the main sources of complexity behind a modern web browser, and is typically abused for user fingerprinting.

Agree.

> Mandate the use of TLS-encrypted connections.

Disagree. Encrypted and unencrypted connections are both useful (and the URI scheme would distinguish them; this allows end users to easily filter out any sites that do not support encryption from their local index).

> Allow integration with SOCKS5 proxies e.g.: Tor.

Agree, although in addition to this, it is also sometimes useful to be able to use local programs as proxies and to have the proxy to handle TLS (although there is some complication in handling client certificates when doing so).

> Provide passwordless authentication via client certificates, and always ask for user authorization beforehand.

Agree, with both parts. (Passwords might still be implemented too (although if you don't want to, then you don't have to); HTTP has a "Authorization" header for this purpose, and Scorpion also supports something similar (in addition to supporting client certificates if the connection is encrypted).) It will be necessary to ensure that the user can command the browser to log out at any time (both with passwords and with client certificates).

> Provide a local index of sites complying with the requirements above, so that sites can be found without the use of an external search engine. [...] Such index can be updated from third-parties, similarly to package managers like APT.

I think it is a good idea.

> Custom providers can be easily added by users, so the network remains decentralised.

This is important if you are doing the above. (Being able to manually adjust the index is also helpful; see the next paragraph for why this is helpful.)

In addition to this, there is another possibility of alternate service index; in case of a link to an unsupported service (i.e. one not in the index), it can interpret it using an alternate service (e.g. to a plain HTML version of Twitter or Mastodon, or a Gemini service that displays a proxied news article, etc). In some cases, it may be able to try to figure out from the retrieved HTML or HTTP response headers, e.g. if it is a Mastodon instance. Other times the user might manually specify them when viewing them.

> Sites accessible from it can still be accessed from traditional web browsers.

OK. (If you follow my multi-protocol suggestion above, then this is not always the case; I think it is useful to have multiple ways, and this is one of them.)

> It provides guarantees on a subset of features from the modern web that do not harm users.

OK.

> Users do no longer have to worry on inspecting which websites can be trusted, as such guarantees would be provided by the browser.

This is very helpful.

> It allows reusing existing tools, both web browsers and servers.

Yes, although it is not always desirable for several reasons, e.g. for testing compatibility. (Sometimes it is desirable, though.)

> Because of the smaller set of features, it also leads to simpler code, allowing more implementations to flourish over time.

This is also helped by my suggestion to require that it works correctly if the user chooses to disable CSS.

It additionally links to a "Native Web" document. I disagree with those ideas. It is not necessarily to only allow AGPL3, since it is possible to have source code available in such a way that is compatible with AGPL3 in other ways (e.g. public domain source code without patent restrictions etc). I would use uxn/varvara which is much simpler to implement, also being more portable and avoiding the other disadvantages listed there, but it is also not as "powerful" system and not native code, so is a different disadvantage. About hardware access, I think that it should not request hardware access but only e.g. if you request audio input, the user can specify a microphone or another program or an existing audio file etc. (Solving this also can be done in my way of designing a new operating system with "proxy capabilities"; such a system could run inside of other systems as well as stand-alone, and can run native code as well as being able to emulate non-native instruction sets, so that is another way to solve it, although it is more complicated than using uxn/varvara.)

Re: For advertising, Firefox now collects user data by default

#503
post #17

The CTO of Mozilla just posted on /r/firefox about this: https://old.reddit.com/r/firefox/comments/1e43w7v/a_word_abo...

It shows that their interest is in a "sustainable ad-driven economy model with privacy deemed acceptable by Mozilla", and an "agent of the user".

I suppose it shows who's paying Mozilla.

Re: For advertising, Firefox now collects user data by default

#504
I kind of like how this has dominated the 'active' section ever since it started and it's, barely a news story everywhere else.

Honestly I don't have much to add to the conversation. Mozilla made a bad move, Firefox's big thing was privacy and not being Chromium and it's lost the first thing.

Re: For advertising, Firefox now collects user data by default

#505
post #9

So how do we turn it off? Found it. Go to settings, type privacy into the search box. The last item under "Firefox Data Collection and Use" is a check box labelled "Allow websites to perform privacy-preserving ad measurement". It was already unchecked on mine when I looked just now.

Yeah on desktop. On mobile it's a lot harder. It's still turned on and you have to use a workaround to enable about: config because they don't bother to make this option visible in settings.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40974414

Re: For advertising, Firefox now collects user data by default

#506
post #37

So where can I donate to Ladybird browser development? Before anyone tries to respond with it. It is https://donorbox.org/ladybird

They really need to start adding windows as a build target at some near point in the future. As a webdev, that’s the only way I can convince the public to switch.

it would be very silly for them to add windows support

Re: For advertising, Firefox now collects user data by default

#507

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but I don't think that really changes anything here. The idea of a law that bans advertising when the customer pays you would miss a huge portion of advertising and data collection including Firefox.

I read their post as banning it when the advertiser pays anyone else?

I may have just misread it, but how would that work? When would an advertiser not be paying anyone else?

Re: For advertising, Firefox now collects user data by default

#508

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Or the third option: they feel the tradeoff of HN & co's criticism style is not a big deal in the end. Well, right now, with their dwindling market cap, I feel like their only userbase is HN & co's type of user. They repeatedly failed to increase their user base with non privacy conscious adjacent communities. So antagonizing the ONLY folks that go through the trouble of installing a non default browser to have a w…

It seems somewhat questionable whether or not it is possible to sustain something as complex as Firefox based on users like us. There might not be enough, or enough people willing to pay. They’d be really screwed if Google didn’t give them a good deal. Somewhat wondering if Google just keeps them around to stave off the appearance of being a monopoly. The web seems to have gotten pretty unsustainable in general. Migh…

>Somewhat wondering if Google just keeps them around to stave off the appearance of being a monopoly.

No shit.

Re: For advertising, Firefox now collects user data by default

#509
post #87
post #17

The CTO of Mozilla just posted on /r/firefox about this: https://old.reddit.com/r/firefox/comments/1e43w7v/a_word_abo...

> It’s clear in retrospect that we should have communicated more on this one What isn’t clear, in retrospect or otherwise, is why companies/apps/services need to keep learning this lesson. The user outcry was utterly predictable from even before the first web article was out. The fact that no one with decision power at Mozilla saw it coming is worrying: either they have zero understanding of people’s concerns for pri…

> What isn’t clear, in retrospect or otherwise, is why companies/apps/services need to keep learning this lesson. The user outcry was utterly predictable from even before the first web article was out.

One possibility is they knew there would be an outcry but estimated that the loss in user support because of it would be limited enough that the upside of having the majority of users with the setting left on wins.

Re: For advertising, Firefox now collects user data by default

#510

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What isn’t clear, in retrospect or otherwise, is why companies/apps/services need to keep learning this lesson. They are trying to find a funding model that makes them independent from Google. - Building a fast, privacy-oriented browser that keeps up with web standards and fixes security bugs takes people, organisation and therefore money. Yes, much more than that CEO salary. - No one wants to buy for a browser. -…

Mozilla has tried experiment after experiment to try to earn money. Let's try forcing Pocket down people's throats. Let's automatically install Mr Robot. You know what people will love? Full-page ads for a VPN! No one has seen enough VPN ads! The one funding model they haven't experimented with at all is actually asking people to pay for Firefox. Donations or subscription, they haven't even tried it once. And yet peo…

> And yet people will over and over again insist that that would never work. Doesn't that strike you as odd?

Not really. Perhaps they know enough about this that they believe it wouldn't work. How much would you pay for Firefox per year? How many people would pay that figure?

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