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For advertising, Firefox now collects user data by default

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Re: For advertising, Firefox now collects user data by default

#321

Post by Klonoar »

closewith wrote: post #250
Klonoar wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh, I don’t think my comment is defensive. I also could’ve just ignored the comment. I explained to them that I’m open to discussing but there’s nothing to be gained when the comment starts off in conspiracy theory. It’s an open source project, people will 100% notice if they tried to do what the parent comment is suggesting.

It certainly reads defensively. > It’s an open source project, people will 100% notice if they tried to do what the parent comment is suggesting. No-one thinks they'll lie about it. They'd announce it quietly just like this change, letting the fuss blow over. The average user would never even realise and Firefox would continue on its journey towards user hostility.

You’re certainly welcome to read it however you’d like.

OP specifically said “make the setting do nothing while still collecting the data”. I don’t know about you, but a setting that acts like that would be akin to lying.

The comment chain is pretty clear here IMO.

Re: For advertising, Firefox now collects user data by default

#322

Post by Kalium »

lolinder wrote: post #281
david_draco wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What isn’t clear, in retrospect or otherwise, is why companies/apps/services need to keep learning this lesson. They are trying to find a funding model that makes them independent from Google. - Building a fast, privacy-oriented browser that keeps up with web standards and fixes security bugs takes people, organisation and therefore money. Yes, much more than that CEO salary. - No one wants to buy for a browser. -…

Mozilla has tried experiment after experiment to try to earn money. Let's try forcing Pocket down people's throats. Let's automatically install Mr Robot. You know what people will love? Full-page ads for a VPN! No one has seen enough VPN ads! The one funding model they haven't experimented with at all is actually asking people to pay for Firefox. Donations or subscription, they haven't even tried it once. And yet peo…

At one point Mozilla was literally selling a VPN subscription. That point is now - you can go buy one today. https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/what-mozilla-vpn-and-ho...

You can even donate money today: https://foundation.mozilla.org/en/donate/ From memory, Mozilla's spent years trying to get donations through asking people nicely and in relatively unobtrusive ways in-browser for years. You can even give monthly - a subscription, if you will.

Not only have they tried both donations and subscriptions, but their efforts have been resoundingly ignored. To the point where you are far from the first person to fault them for supposedly choosing to not do what they demonstrably do.

Perhaps people suggest that donations and subscriptions don't work well or reliably because there's history showing that.

Re: For advertising, Firefox now collects user data by default

#323

Post by Kalium »

nerdponx wrote: post #246
david_draco wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What isn’t clear, in retrospect or otherwise, is why companies/apps/services need to keep learning this lesson. They are trying to find a funding model that makes them independent from Google. - Building a fast, privacy-oriented browser that keeps up with web standards and fixes security bugs takes people, organisation and therefore money. Yes, much more than that CEO salary. - No one wants to buy for a browser. -…

If there is one single piece of software I will post a recurring fee for, it's a web browser. Look at Kagi and Orion for example (I pay for both). It's like email. You need to get people over the mental hump. But then if you offer a good product, buyers will be happy they got over it.

https://foundation.mozilla.org/en/donate/

Here you go! Insert credit card here.

Re: For advertising, Firefox now collects user data by default

#324

Post by _heimdall »

sloowm wrote: post #302
_heimdall wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seeing ads outside likely doesn't harm you though, you can ignore them. If your city is plastered with ads to a point at where you can't stand it you can always move, that's just another part of a city that someone may decide they don't like and want something different. > Almost all websites have been tailored to include ads and hide information. You're tracked on all devices you touch. That's really the crux of it…

So because we want to keep government small and ad companies can get so big they basically invade every part of your life you have to leave your phone, close your eyes, stay offline, just move bro. This doesn't seem like a very serious or productive line of reasoning.

> you have to leave your phone

Sure. A phone is a product, it isn't a right or necessity. I get that they are very convenient, and addictive, but they're a very new novelty on the scale of a legal system. There are good arguments for wanting to limit advertising and data privacy, but protecting our right to use a certain piece of technology really just isn't very compelling IMO.

> close your eyes

Advertising is nothing new though. If your concern is even just seeing ads at all, that's a problem that has existed much longer than digital data brokers.

> stay offline

Similar to smartphones, being online isn't a right and is a very new concept. We don't have to be online to live our lives, and we shouldn't expect that everyone is online.

> just move bro

Moving isn't easy, and may not be cheap depending on how you do it, but is there really something wrong with moving when you don't like the area you live in? To me that seems like a totally reasonable response for anyone that's able, and for those that aren't willing to move they can try to change the place they live. Moving is just easier than somehow convincing a locality to limit or remove advertising.

Re: For advertising, Firefox now collects user data by default

#325

Post by bee_rider »

arepublicadoceu wrote: post #193
Klonoar wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The fact that no one with decision power at Mozilla saw it coming is worrying: either they have zero understanding of people’s concerns for privacy or they don’t care. Or the third option: they feel the tradeoff of HN & co's criticism style is not a big deal in the end. Criticism of Mozilla in general is very warranted right now, but the way(s) in which everyone is doing so just feels very out of touch with the act…

> Or the third option: they feel the tradeoff of HN & co's criticism style is not a big deal in the end. Well, right now, with their dwindling market cap, I feel like their only userbase is HN & co's type of user. They repeatedly failed to increase their user base with non privacy conscious adjacent communities. So antagonizing the ONLY folks that go through the trouble of installing a non default browser to have a w…

It seems somewhat questionable whether or not it is possible to sustain something as complex as Firefox based on users like us. There might not be enough, or enough people willing to pay.

They’d be really screwed if Google didn’t give them a good deal. Somewhat wondering if Google just keeps them around to stave off the appearance of being a monopoly.

The web seems to have gotten pretty unsustainable in general. Might consider upgrading to Lynx or something like that.

Re: For advertising, Firefox now collects user data by default

#326

Post by dartos »

throw10920 wrote: post #320
temporarely wrote: post #162

Enough of this waiting for virtuous entities to address legitimate concerns of the public. The "ad industry" is a cancer and we need legal protection against this "industry". The solution is political not technical and definitely can not be left to "the market". Haven't you had enough?

Please don't engage in this blatant political activism and flamebait here. This is anti-intellectual and not what I want to see on HN. I agree that something needs to be done about the ad industry and rampant data collection, but your emotionally manipulative comments are not it, and actively make it harder to discuss solutions to the problem.

How so?

Re: For advertising, Firefox now collects user data by default

#327

Post by Klonoar »

pdimitar wrote: post #199
Klonoar wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is so much hypothetical-borderline-conspiracy-theory packed in to this single comment that I cannot find a charitable response. I'd be fine to continue the discussion if you can find a way to engage without assuming that the people who build one of the last checks on the open internet are somehow trying to maliciously invade your privacy.

Firefox is dependent on Google for ages, that should tell you all you need to know about "conspiracies". I am not interested in a discussion with a person who gives the benefit of the doubt of a company who has clearly not only made a Faustian deal but is now looking to expand partnership with the people that nobody wants tracking their machines and activities. Because as we both know, in the entire history of humani…

Well, no, that doesn’t tell us anything about conspiracies. That’s just Mozilla getting money from Google. You can argue that it’s problematic from the stance of Google using Firefox to argue they don’t hold a monopoly - and I’d agree with you there.

That deal with Google isn’t enough to leap to the conspiracy theory here though. The ad industry isn’t going away, Mozilla seems to want to try to make it work for all parties.

If you want to let perfect be the enemy of good, though, go for it. shrug

Re: For advertising, Firefox now collects user data by default

#329

Post by southernplaces7 »

rc_mob wrote: post #253
southernplaces7 wrote: post #232

One of the few things about Firefox that made me attempt to tolerate its repeatedly slow, shitty performance and tendency to slow my whole device down, was the privacy angle. With that gone, why bother? Might as well use Chrome. At least it's light and fairly quick.

Eh? Chrome is famously bulky and a memory hog

Sorry folks but though i'm just speaking from personal experience, it's what I noticed time and time again. I've given Firefox multiple chances as my default browser over several years right up until maybe a year ago and the same problem presented itself across different laptops and FF versions (many after in those cases someone told me that FF was FINALLY fixed, oops). Were these laptops heavy duty models with serious CPU, GPU, RAM and etc power? Nope, but they shouldn't have to be for just running a browser.

Chrome on the other hand (and believe me I despise Google in so many different ways) has consistently been okay. Not great, but okay, and certainly better than Firefox. This while having the same browsing, tab and extension habits in both browsers.

With comments like my original above I've always seen a bunch of people come out with all sorts of caveats defending or justifying FF, but personal experience has consistently shown me differently.

Re: For advertising, Firefox now collects user data by default

#330

Post by _heimdall »

A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #278
_heimdall wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seeing ads outside likely doesn't harm you though, you can ignore them. If your city is plastered with ads to a point at where you can't stand it you can always move, that's just another part of a city that someone may decide they don't like and want something different. > Almost all websites have been tailored to include ads and hide information. You're tracked on all devices you touch. That's really the crux of it…

I honestly do not think it is possible to ignore ads unless you do not see/smell/hear/experience them. Even if you dismiss them, you have received an impression of that ad. Your mind has been affected. It just happens that we normalized it as a normal function of society ( not completely unlike how we normalized cameras everywhere including on doorbell ). I have no interest in dating farmers, but I still remember bei…

> I honestly do not think it is possible to ignore ads unless you do not see/smell/hear/experience them

While we can't avoid seeing ads in a public place, we can manage how we respond to them. That's really not much different than not liking what someone else says. We can try to regulate everything such that people can be comfortable and never have to build a thick skin, or we can trust that people can and should be able to manage their emotions well enough to ignore things they don't like.

> It seems less and less of an option. Amtrak gatekeeps its best prices behind an app. Parking lot wants me to use an app. My workplace now effectively forced me to have phone on me ( even if I come into office.. I can understand the need for it while remote

I can't stand when companies do this stuff, assuming that everyone has a smartphone and is willing to give them access to it. I choose not to patronize companies that do it, but yeah that's harder when your office building requires a smartphone to enter. When push comes to shove, I wonder what the employer would say if someone raised that it isn't an option for them and they need a different way to enter.

Broadly, we have a real issue today with society allowing conveniences to become necessities. We do it to ourselves, but just because smartphones and cars are convenient doesn't mean we should build a world where everyone has to have them. It locks us into certain paths, and when concerns like climate change come up for example we're hamstrung because we can't imagine giving up things like personal vehicles, air travel, smartphones, etc.

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