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For advertising, Firefox now collects user data by default

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Re: For advertising, Firefox now collects user data by default

#141

Post by leshenka »

quaintdev wrote: post #133
tgv wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't hold your breath. It takes ages to develop a browser that's as fast as Firefox. CSS and JS are no joke.

Maybe it's time to move away from whole html/css/js, http and browsers? Let's build something that is Ad resistant from the start. Something that uses native technologies. Edit: We need something that does not need backing of large corporations or huge funding to access the web. Internet was always simple. We have become over dependent on browsers and http stack.

have you got any suggestions?

Re: For advertising, Firefox now collects user data by default

#142

Post by remedan »

qwertox wrote: post #107
eco wrote: post #17

The CTO of Mozilla just posted on /r/firefox about this: https://old.reddit.com/r/firefox/comments/1e43w7v/a_word_abo...

> Most users just accept the defaults they’re given, and framing the issue as one of individual responsibility is a great way to mollify savvy users while ensuring that most peoples’ privacy remains compromised. Cookie banners are a good example of where this thinking ends up. The problem we currently have with cookie banners is thanks to the browser vendors not caring about it. An API could exist which a page can qu…

This was already tried with the Do Not Track header. Websites simply ignore it. They don't want an easy way to get the user's preference. Because they know that most users would set it to decline tracking. Sites would rather annoy every visitor for the chance that they click 'accept'.

Re: For advertising, Firefox now collects user data by default

#143

Post by ahartmetz »

cqqxo4zV46cp wrote: post #116
Klonoar wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The fact that no one with decision power at Mozilla saw it coming is worrying: either they have zero understanding of people’s concerns for privacy or they don’t care. Or the third option: they feel the tradeoff of HN & co's criticism style is not a big deal in the end. Criticism of Mozilla in general is very warranted right now, but the way(s) in which everyone is doing so just feels very out of touch with the act…

[flagged]

This bunch of nerds creates software, including for the web, and sometimes there's an option to test it on Firefox or not. Nerds also recommend browsers to friends and family.

HN is also not the only bunch of nerds like that.

Re: For advertising, Firefox now collects user data by default

#144

Post by Klonoar »

pdimitar wrote: post #109
Klonoar wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The fact that no one with decision power at Mozilla saw it coming is worrying: either they have zero understanding of people’s concerns for privacy or they don’t care. Or the third option: they feel the tradeoff of HN & co's criticism style is not a big deal in the end. Criticism of Mozilla in general is very warranted right now, but the way(s) in which everyone is doing so just feels very out of touch with the act…

> It's also possible to disable it, it's not like you're trapped in it. Or so they say, in order to make people be OK with it. They might play the waiting game and in a year or two will make the setting not do anything and still collect / send data, hoping that by that time people have forgotten.

There is so much hypothetical-borderline-conspiracy-theory packed in to this single comment that I cannot find a charitable response.

I'd be fine to continue the discussion if you can find a way to engage without assuming that the people who build one of the last checks on the open internet are somehow trying to maliciously invade your privacy.

Re: For advertising, Firefox now collects user data by default

#145

Post by phicoh »

Klonoar wrote: post #101
latexr wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It’s clear in retrospect that we should have communicated more on this one What isn’t clear, in retrospect or otherwise, is why companies/apps/services need to keep learning this lesson. The user outcry was utterly predictable from even before the first web article was out. The fact that no one with decision power at Mozilla saw it coming is worrying: either they have zero understanding of people’s concerns for pri…

> The fact that no one with decision power at Mozilla saw it coming is worrying: either they have zero understanding of people’s concerns for privacy or they don’t care. Or the third option: they feel the tradeoff of HN & co's criticism style is not a big deal in the end. Criticism of Mozilla in general is very warranted right now, but the way(s) in which everyone is doing so just feels very out of touch with the act…

Firefox market share is going down.

One reason is that the people who would be promoting Firefox aren't.

Personally I feel mostly ashamed to admit I'm using Firefox. In theory Firefox is great. In practice they coming up with new ways to treat their core user base badly.

Re: For advertising, Firefox now collects user data by default

#146

Post by leshenka »

prox wrote: post #37
DaoVeles wrote: post #31

So where can I donate to Ladybird browser development? Before anyone tries to respond with it. It is https://donorbox.org/ladybird

They really need to start adding windows as a build target at some near point in the future. As a webdev, that’s the only way I can convince the public to switch.

It's already too hard to convince public to switch from chrome to another chromium browser or firefox and you're talking about switching to browser that is at least several years away from feature parity

Re: For advertising, Firefox now collects user data by default

#147

Post by squidbeak »

lopis wrote: post #84
rwmj wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> leading to a perpetual arms race that we may not win So we're not even going to try.

This is an attempt to try. You don't win my being an immovable wall going against the biggest corporations. If the W3C manages to create a system that satisfies advertisers while preserving our privacy, that's how you win. There isn't a future where advertising will just disappear. I'm just being pragmatic here, as a user of ad blockers for 15 years.

An immovable wall is exactly what is needed to confront big corporations when they behave abusively (and intrusive profiling is an example of this). 'Pragmatism' here is just acquiescence in creeping surrender. Look what advertising has already done to the web and privacy.

Re: For advertising, Firefox now collects user data by default

#148

Post by genezeta »

I've been wondering about this whole affair. The thing that got me wondering is this: Is this really interesting for advertisers?

I mean, let's imagine this works as explained -whatever, let's imagine it does and with no downsides even-. Now as far as I can understand this aggregate information ends up producing something like "this particular ad placed here ends up producing this number of conversions". Is this really something an advertiser wants to know? Maybe to some extent, but to me it sounds a lot more like something an advertising platform would want to know. Which is why I'm not surprised by Meta's interest.

To me this feels like a good tool to avoid paying small websites at all for just having ads. Impressions would be finally and completely discarded as something payable. Now for the ads on your site to earn you something at all you need conversions that you can now reliably track. For a site owner to be paid, they'd need to increase the CTR; they can't just "provide ad space", they have to work to earn clicks.

So maybe -probably- I'm way off here. Maybe someone can correct me. But as I see this, this tool seems very specifically made for the big advertising platforms.

Re: For advertising, Firefox now collects user data by default

#149

Post by Klonoar »

chiefalchemist wrote: post #114
Klonoar wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The fact that no one with decision power at Mozilla saw it coming is worrying: either they have zero understanding of people’s concerns for privacy or they don’t care. Or the third option: they feel the tradeoff of HN & co's criticism style is not a big deal in the end. Criticism of Mozilla in general is very warranted right now, but the way(s) in which everyone is doing so just feels very out of touch with the act…

> This thread in general feels like it leaves Mozilla no room to experiment or find any form of growth. Mozilla is welcome to experiment. The issue here is: - The default opts the client in instead of the client making that choice to be a Guinea pig in the experiment - I get emails almost weekly that amount to Mozilla playing the role of internet privacy police. They *are* well aware of the rights and wrongs. Are the…

> The default opts the client in instead of the client making that choice to be a Guinea pig in the experiment

I think this is a reasonable critique, even if I personally don't find it a big deal. If it's privacy preserving, I don't necessarily give a shit if it's defaulted on - especially if there's a way to disable it.

(IMO, defaulting it on and then widely announcing how to disable it is what they should have done, and their bungled communications on this is biting them)

> I get emails almost weekly that amount to Mozilla playing the role of internet privacy police. They are* well aware of the rights and wrongs. Are they going to call out themselves?*

Why would they call themselves out here...? They have stated, very bluntly, that they are trying to do something in a privacy preserving way. They are acting in line with their stated intentions/role/etc.

> As for growth? How about paid pro-privacy email hosting? And a suite of applications (a la Google docs)? Advertising might not be going away but there are still opportunities that align with Mozilla's ideals and brand... And they're too busy being hypocritical internet police???

Those are wholly separate business ventures, whereas dealing with the advertising behemoth is an unfortunate part of the browser ecosystem today. Someone, somewhere, is going to have to contend with this - and Mozilla is somewhat uniquely positioned to explore here.

If you think Apple or Google are going to do it without perverse incentives, then I don't know what to tell you.

Re: For advertising, Firefox now collects user data by default

#150

Post by n_ary »

se0 wrote: post #91
jeltz wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Mozilla has been down this road before. It was not good for them. Yes, this is Cliqz all over again and that scandal cost them most of their German userbase.

And which browser are using the German now ?

I would say, average user is using Microsoft Edge(whatever that comes default with their OS) on their desktops and a combo of Chrome/Samsung/Safari on the mobile.

While Chrome adverts and fearmongering campaigns are now everywhere and people seem to be taking interest in Chrome, but Edge is probably the most common, as I see it literally everywhere(including public service office facilities).

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