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For advertising, Firefox now collects user data by default

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Re: For advertising, Firefox now collects user data by default

#101

Post by Klonoar »

latexr wrote: post #87
eco wrote: post #17

The CTO of Mozilla just posted on /r/firefox about this: https://old.reddit.com/r/firefox/comments/1e43w7v/a_word_abo...

> It’s clear in retrospect that we should have communicated more on this one What isn’t clear, in retrospect or otherwise, is why companies/apps/services need to keep learning this lesson. The user outcry was utterly predictable from even before the first web article was out. The fact that no one with decision power at Mozilla saw it coming is worrying: either they have zero understanding of people’s concerns for pri…

> The fact that no one with decision power at Mozilla saw it coming is worrying: either they have zero understanding of people’s concerns for privacy or they don’t care.

Or the third option: they feel the tradeoff of HN & co's criticism style is not a big deal in the end. Criticism of Mozilla in general is very warranted right now, but the way(s) in which everyone is doing so just feels very out of touch with the actual situation. ;P

They're - by their own words - trying to do something in a privacy preserving way because the ad industry is not going away. They might fuck it up at first, and that's why it's an experiment. It's also possible to disable it, it's not like you're trapped in it.

This thread in general feels like it leaves Mozilla no room to experiment or find any form of growth. People want them to be "just a browser" but then also expect them to be stewards of the web - and then cry foul when they actually try to find a setup that fits into the current model of the web.

Re: For advertising, Firefox now collects user data by default

#102

Post by tgv »

BoredPositron wrote: post #65
eco wrote: post #17

The CTO of Mozilla just posted on /r/firefox about this: https://old.reddit.com/r/firefox/comments/1e43w7v/a_word_abo...

Oh my... not exactly reassuring.

This phrase in particular:

> I’ll do my best to address [your questions], though I’ve got a busy week so it might take me a bit.

That means: I'll answer the easy ones, and ignore the hard ones, or ask the legal team to come up with some weasel words.

Re: For advertising, Firefox now collects user data by default

#103

Post by ninjin »

lopis wrote: post #84
rwmj wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> leading to a perpetual arms race that we may not win So we're not even going to try.

This is an attempt to try. You don't win my being an immovable wall going against the biggest corporations. If the W3C manages to create a system that satisfies advertisers while preserving our privacy, that's how you win. There isn't a future where advertising will just disappear. I'm just being pragmatic here, as a user of ad blockers for 15 years.

I can see the economic argument, but I am not sure that I buy it. W3C could push this as a standard, but surely anything that is privacy preserving will by its very definition provide less data for advertisement targeting, no? With less data, the targeting is likely to be worse in terms of advertisement efficiency. Thus, the economic incentive even in an ideal situation as with a W3C standard will be pushing any advertiser to "betray" the system and fall back on the very arms race that Mozilla is arguing that they are trying to avoid, no?

At best, politicians could jump on the "solution", but then why are Mozilla not already lobbying in that case? Why is the first party they are reaching out to the wolf in this drama?

Regardless, Mozilla has lost me at this point as a user. This being opt-out is inexcusable and I will find ways to gravitate away from them as I should not need my poor package maintainers to be paranoid with their upstream code in the same way they have to be with Chrome in order to protect us from developer abuse like this. Will try Mull on mobile now, hopefully it is viable, and see how I solve the desktop situation when I can find the time.

Re: For advertising, Firefox now collects user data by default

#104

Post by tgv »

DaoVeles wrote: post #31

So where can I donate to Ladybird browser development? Before anyone tries to respond with it. It is https://donorbox.org/ladybird

Don't hold your breath. It takes ages to develop a browser that's as fast as Firefox. CSS and JS are no joke.

Re: For advertising, Firefox now collects user data by default

#105

Post by jillesvangurp »

lopis wrote: post #28
eco wrote: post #17

The CTO of Mozilla just posted on /r/firefox about this: https://old.reddit.com/r/firefox/comments/1e43w7v/a_word_abo...

I think this line is very important: > First, in the absence of alternatives, there are enormous economic incentives for advertisers to try to bypass these countermeasures, leading to a perpetual arms race that we may not win. It's very likely that this arms race will lead to DRM in web publications and video feeds (which Google is already experimenting with).

Which will lead to counter moves by alterative browsers and websites and Google risking the loss of browser market share. If you think this is unthinkable, just look back at Microsoft's dominance of the browser market twenty years ago. Exactly like Google is doing they were pushing through all sorts of user hostile stuff via internet explorer. Before Chrome came along, Firefox was one of the few holdouts against them. Internet explorer users were dealing with all sorts of crap. Popups, popunders, all sorts of viruses, cross site scripting attacks, etc. Mostly that was just a mix of poorly designed features but there was also MS trying to get into search and advertising and they were trying to abuse their defacto monopoly to do that.

Re: For advertising, Firefox now collects user data by default

#106

Post by doctor_eval »

jillesvangurp wrote: post #105
lopis wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this line is very important: > First, in the absence of alternatives, there are enormous economic incentives for advertisers to try to bypass these countermeasures, leading to a perpetual arms race that we may not win. It's very likely that this arms race will lead to DRM in web publications and video feeds (which Google is already experimenting with).

Which will lead to counter moves by alterative browsers and websites and Google risking the loss of browser market share. If you think this is unthinkable, just look back at Microsoft's dominance of the browser market twenty years ago. Exactly like Google is doing they were pushing through all sorts of user hostile stuff via internet explorer. Before Chrome came along, Firefox was one of the few holdouts against them…

I don’t disagree with you in principle, but this history is not quite right. IIRC the IE6 team was shut down. Basically only Mozilla and Apple were building browsers at scale until Chrome came along.

I might be misremembering?

Re: For advertising, Firefox now collects user data by default

#107

Post by qwertox »

eco wrote: post #17

The CTO of Mozilla just posted on /r/firefox about this: https://old.reddit.com/r/firefox/comments/1e43w7v/a_word_abo...

> Most users just accept the defaults they’re given, and framing the issue as one of individual responsibility is a great way to mollify savvy users while ensuring that most peoples’ privacy remains compromised. Cookie banners are a good example of where this thinking ends up.

The problem we currently have with cookie banners is thanks to the browser vendors not caring about it.

An API could exist which a page can query, where the user has already pre-selected how they want to deal with cookies. For example reject all but the essential ones, reject none at all, reject some, according to certain criteria.

Even more, the browser could check if the page is adhering to the user's expectations, and if it doesn't, block it for a period of time, like a week or a month, and publish the fact that they ignored the user's wishes.

Possibly also give the user a signed document which claims that this page did not respect the user's privacy expectations, so that the user can use it in court.

These should be solvable problems.

Re: For advertising, Firefox now collects user data by default

#108

Post by cqqxo4zV46cp »

qwertox wrote: post #107
eco wrote: post #17

The CTO of Mozilla just posted on /r/firefox about this: https://old.reddit.com/r/firefox/comments/1e43w7v/a_word_abo...

> Most users just accept the defaults they’re given, and framing the issue as one of individual responsibility is a great way to mollify savvy users while ensuring that most peoples’ privacy remains compromised. Cookie banners are a good example of where this thinking ends up. The problem we currently have with cookie banners is thanks to the browser vendors not caring about it. An API could exist which a page can qu…

What!? What’s the benefit of this from a site’s POV? Your technical solution is completely out of touch with real goals and incentives.

Re: For advertising, Firefox now collects user data by default

#109

Post by pdimitar »

Klonoar wrote: post #101
latexr wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It’s clear in retrospect that we should have communicated more on this one What isn’t clear, in retrospect or otherwise, is why companies/apps/services need to keep learning this lesson. The user outcry was utterly predictable from even before the first web article was out. The fact that no one with decision power at Mozilla saw it coming is worrying: either they have zero understanding of people’s concerns for pri…

> The fact that no one with decision power at Mozilla saw it coming is worrying: either they have zero understanding of people’s concerns for privacy or they don’t care. Or the third option: they feel the tradeoff of HN & co's criticism style is not a big deal in the end. Criticism of Mozilla in general is very warranted right now, but the way(s) in which everyone is doing so just feels very out of touch with the act…

> It's also possible to disable it, it's not like you're trapped in it.

Or so they say, in order to make people be OK with it. They might play the waiting game and in a year or two will make the setting not do anything and still collect / send data, hoping that by that time people have forgotten.

Re: For advertising, Firefox now collects user data by default

#110

Post by MrAlex94 »

ranguna wrote: post #42

https://librewolf.net/ And fallback to Firefox when things don't work. Which is usually on sketchy websites, websites that have heavy bot protection and fingerprinting or ones that use gpu APIs.

A few criticisms of LibreWolf:

* There is no legal entity behind the project. Should anything ever happen with the project (it can happen, even if unlikely), there are no legal ramifications.

* The binaries aren't signed. Yes, code signing is a bit of a racket, but there is some merit in it.

* There is no auto-update mechanism. Might not seem like a big deal, but IMO it is, especially on Windows where you're recommended to rely on 3rd party client to update the browser for you. You've now added a middle man, and since the binaries are not signed... well there's no guarantee you aren't downloading a malicious binary.

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