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California Grid Breezes Through Heatwave with Batteries

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Re: California Grid Breezes Through Heatwave with Batteries

#71

Post by AnthonyMouse »

candiddevmike wrote: post #60
cletus wrote: post #46

Here are some useful graphs showing how electricty demand varies by region, month and time of day [1]. As expected, California peaks in July because there's more demand for cooling than heating. But what's a little surprising is that July is peak demand for every region. There are many reasons why solar is so attractive as a power source, including: 1. It's the only form of power with direct electricty generation. Th…

> But what's a little surprising is that July is peak demand for every region. Majority of homes use natural gas for heating in the winter. If they used electric heat instead, the difference would be enormous.

More to the point, we want them to use electricity for heat instead. Heat pumps are quite efficient and natural gas emits CO2. But contrary to air conditioning load, heating load is inverse to sunlight, so we need a way to supply that electricity at night.

Re: California Grid Breezes Through Heatwave with Batteries

#72

Post by applied_heat »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #43
applied_heat wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was under the impression that “grid forming” as opposed to “grid following” inverters were not a solved problem. Can you cite any battery plant with documented tests of energizing transmission or distribution systems?

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2021-03-08/tesla-is-... | https://archive.today/xU9Kg https://www.ercot.com/files/docs/2024/01/12/Tesla%20BESS%20G... Gambit Energy, owned by Tesla in Texas. Megapack supports grid forming in production (Hawaii and South Australia installations as well). “Virtual Machine Mode.” It is solved, which shouldn’t be controversial considering Tesla’s power control maturity.

Thanks for the link, looks like it is new development in the last 2 years which is the blink of an eye in utility timeframes.

Re: California Grid Breezes Through Heatwave with Batteries

#73

Post by AnthonyMouse »

jeffbee wrote: post #17

Fission stans in shambles. https://observablehq.com/@jwb/caiso-battery-discharge-histor...

It's weird that you're talking about fission when the thing the batteries are really replacing is natural gas peaker plants.

Peak shaving (i.e. the thing storage is best at) is essentially the opposite of baseload. It gets you over the hump where the demand peak is after sunset but you don't want to have a 100% nuclear grid overbuilt to meet the peak demand that occurs when solar generation is zero, and you also want to stop using natural gas.

You still need something to generate power when the load is back to baseline and the peak shaving batteries are dry but it's 8 more hours until sunrise. Especially if we're going to electrify heating loads that currently use fossil fuels, which are higher at night and higher during the part of the year when solar generation is lowest.

Re: California Grid Breezes Through Heatwave with Batteries

#74

Post by nine_k »

mullingitover wrote: post #37
pokstad wrote: post #18

No heat wave in SoCal yet. Let me know when the grid breezes through all of LA and OC having a heatwave.

Socal and the general southwest has been setting records[1]. Some highlights: > Palmdale and Lancaster on Tuesday experienced a record sixth straight day of temperatures at or above 110 degrees, surpassing the prior record of three days for both Antelope Valley cities. But wait, there’s more — officials say the streak is expected to continue the rest of the week, with highs forecast over 110 until Friday. > Las Vegas…

Ouch :( 125°F is well above the pain threshold.

Re: California Grid Breezes Through Heatwave with Batteries

#75

Post by Gibbon1 »

nine_k wrote: post #67
Gibbon1 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thing I harp on is the logistics of battery installations are fantastic in about every way. If you have a couple of brown field acres of land next to an existing substation you can just buy and install containerized batteries. And you don't need specialized contractors to handle the job either. Pour concrete pads, forklift operators to take batteries off the truck and put them on the pad. And then standard HV techs t…

This is cool. The sheer amount of mater required to build hydro storage should not be underestimated. Another win is that you can put something below the solar panels, even grow shade-preferring plants below them. This is being done in many places. Otherwise it could be a storage area, a light industrial facility, a shopping mall, even a sports field. And for all the battery storage you can afford, of course.

I think the answer for some area's is sheep. They can graze under the panels and don't chew on stuff like goats.

There is a whole interest in agrivoltaics as it's become apparent that the land under the solar panels remains productive. In the western US there is a lot of completely unproductive land to put solar panels on. But in the east and midwest being able to continue to use the land for agriculture is a win.

https://www.energy.gov/eere/solar/agrivoltaics-solar-and-agr...

Random thought about fallow land under solar panels is the soil probably absorbs carbon over time.

Re: California Grid Breezes Through Heatwave with Batteries

#76

Post by nine_k »

msandford wrote: post #29
baq wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m in Europe and I can pick on Texas all day on energy. The separate grid is a self-inflicted gunshot wound in both feet.

How so? Would the Federal regulators have done a better job of making CenterPoint invest the right amount of money into tree trimming and placing lines underground? California is under Federal regulation and has significant problems where PG&E hasn't invested enough in reliability. If California just breezed through every natural disaster with no power outages and lower than Texas energy prices it would truly be a no…

Hitting a company with fines for not doing maintenance required by regulation, when the fines cost more than compliance, works well. Given sensible regulations, of course.

Look at airlines: rather strict and reasonably good safety regulations made flying the safest form of transportation, safer than driving and maybe even walking. Nevertheless, we don't see exorbitant prices either; if anything, the cost of air travel is surprisingly low, often competitive with rail, even in EU.

Of course, unreasonable regulations are a bane, see the leaded fuel situation in general aviation, or the whole nuclear industry.

Re: California Grid Breezes Through Heatwave with Batteries

#77

Post by timschmidt »

Gibbon1 wrote: post #57
redleader55 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are right: there are a lot of proposals at the moment trying to replace lithium. I'm hopeful, but let's wait until they are widely adopted before claiming victory. Let's not forget the carbon and environmental cost of such alternative batteries are not known because they are not mass built and mass deployed.

When I read people talking about replacing lithium batteries I think of the decades of reading about material X replacing silicon in IC's and solar cells.

These are available for purchase from a number of companies in mass production today: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium-ion_battery

Re: California Grid Breezes Through Heatwave with Batteries

#78

Post by timschmidt »

Gibbon1 wrote: post #75
nine_k wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is cool. The sheer amount of mater required to build hydro storage should not be underestimated. Another win is that you can put something below the solar panels, even grow shade-preferring plants below them. This is being done in many places. Otherwise it could be a storage area, a light industrial facility, a shopping mall, even a sports field. And for all the battery storage you can afford, of course.

I think the answer for some area's is sheep. They can graze under the panels and don't chew on stuff like goats. There is a whole interest in agrivoltaics as it's become apparent that the land under the solar panels remains productive. In the western US there is a lot of completely unproductive land to put solar panels on. But in the east and midwest being able to continue to use the land for agriculture is a win. ht…

Also car parks. Shields the cars from weather, and provides power right where you want it for charging. Can even aid guiding rainwater runoff to avoid contamination with petroleum products. And reduces the amount of heat absorbed by giant swaths of black asphalt.

Re: California Grid Breezes Through Heatwave with Batteries

#80

Post by simfree »

jeffbee wrote: post #49
jopsen wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to mentioned all the dirty cheap second hand batteries becoming available as electric cars are scrapped. For grid storage second hand batteries might be fine. If taking them out of a scrapped car is feasible.

Grid battery deployment is faster than EV market penetration in the USA. This is not something that can siphon off a fraction of EV batteries. It is a huge market in its own right.

What would be considered ruined Leaf EV batteries that have significant range loss (20% to 50% degradation, for a car that went around 60 miles with a full battery) are being used to cover peak load right now in California and have been used to do so for years.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqlOlqK_ot8

2nd life use cases for cheap, mass produced batteries like this are more common than you think.

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