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California Grid Breezes Through Heatwave with Batteries

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Re: California Grid Breezes Through Heatwave with Batteries

#41
post #25
post #10

I work in the power generation industry. The large scale introduction of Battery Storage is going to be a game changer for renewables since it will allow overproduction during the day to be stored for the evening peak. I think the current fad of peaking plants is somewhat overblown, as the average large scale battery storage system will not face the issues with starting reliability that can be present on large gas tu…

Why can't anywhere that has significant elevation should just pumped storage of water during the day and use hydro on the way back down?

Because there are fewer places than expected where it really makes sense. Was discussed in an old video of Practical Engineering: https://youtu.be/66YRCjkxIcg?si=PXArfkXkbCODeSAF&t=290

Re: California Grid Breezes Through Heatwave with Batteries

#42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think the current fad of peaking plants is somewhat overblown Do you mean peak powerplants will become obsolete? As far as I know, in many places peak powerplants are hydroelectric, which in the future, aided by local batteries, will allow filling the reservoir lakes to higher limits and covering greater peaks - eg. malfunctions - which in turn will make grids more stable. The big unknown, as far as I understand,…

you can make batteries out of iron or sulfur. no rare minerals required.

You are right: there are a lot of proposals at the moment trying to replace lithium. I'm hopeful, but let's wait until they are widely adopted before claiming victory. Let's not forget the carbon and environmental cost of such alternative batteries are not known because they are not mass built and mass deployed.

Re: California Grid Breezes Through Heatwave with Batteries

#43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely, there is no doubt that are stealing grid service revenue from spinning thermal, and they also provide black start services (jump starting larger generators when they go out through an isolated transmission path).

I was under the impression that “grid forming” as opposed to “grid following” inverters were not a solved problem. Can you cite any battery plant with documented tests of energizing transmission or distribution systems?

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2021-03-08/tesla-is-... | https://archive.today/xU9Kg

https://www.ercot.com/files/docs/2024/01/12/Tesla%20BESS%20G...

Gambit Energy, owned by Tesla in Texas. Megapack supports grid forming in production (Hawaii and South Australia installations as well). “Virtual Machine Mode.”

It is solved, which shouldn’t be controversial considering Tesla’s power control maturity.

Re: California Grid Breezes Through Heatwave with Batteries

#44

The big wattage numbers are great - but it is unclear how many watt-hours can be supplied - how many hours can California's grid run with batteries? It appears that the batteries are 4 hour batteries. Two questions: is there excess solar capacity in the winter to charge the batteries? How do the batteries perform in the winter - total storage capacity and discharge rate? It is misleading to compare a battery array th…

Because of the regulatory/economic regime the state has established, all of these plants are 4h plants, or 4Wh/W if you prefer. That's the number they need to hit to get the top-tier payout from the grid operator.

Re: California Grid Breezes Through Heatwave with Batteries

#45

The big wattage numbers are great - but it is unclear how many watt-hours can be supplied - how many hours can California's grid run with batteries? It appears that the batteries are 4 hour batteries. Two questions: is there excess solar capacity in the winter to charge the batteries? How do the batteries perform in the winter - total storage capacity and discharge rate? It is misleading to compare a battery array th…

> It is misleading to compare a battery array that lasts for 4 hours to a nuclear powered electric plant that supplies energy at a constant 24/7.

It is misleading to compare the two:

* One has no risk of a nuclear meltdown in a very earthquake prone area (California).

* One does not have 60+ year long successful history of lobbying governments and establishing regulatory capture (note I wrote 'successful')

* one does have issue where they do not reprocess spent fuel adding billions of risk of nuclear fuel leaking into the environment; or if they do recycle, risk creating material for nuclear weapons.

* one would struggle with it's strong baseline, yet inflexible power generation without batteries to handle afternoon peaks

Keeping hearing random arguments for nuclear fission power (why not tidal?) and yet the regulatory capture and earthquake issue is still present in the US. We moved away from nuclear power after Japan's meltdown for a reason. With recent Supreme Court decisions and fracking causing earthquakes in Nebraska it has only gotten worse. I do not trust the industry with nuclear power. California spent a lot of money to establish a working grid that can be used for sustainable power until we get useful fusion (or that big supervolcano hits). Nuclear power is more needed in Texas right now, with it's broken grid, than California.

More information on reprocessing nuclear waste: https://www.projectoptimist.us/why-us-doesnt-recycle-spent-n... https://thebulletin.org/2019/07/recycle-everything-america-e...

Re: California Grid Breezes Through Heatwave with Batteries

#46
Here are some useful graphs showing how electricty demand varies by region, month and time of day [1].

As expected, California peaks in July because there's more demand for cooling than heating. But what's a little surprising is that July is peak demand for every region.

There are many reasons why solar is so attractive as a power source, including:

1. It's the only form of power with direct electricty generation. There's no heating water to turn a turbine;

2. Solar basically has no moving parts. You can point panels towards the Sun to increase efficiency but the panel itself and transmission has no moving parts;

3. Solar panels continue to massively reduce in price and increase in efficiency and it's not clear where this ends;

4. Obviously solar generates its pwower when the Sun is shining. This conincides with when most power is usedk. Adding solar to the power generation mix reduces the peak load required to generate from other sources;

5. Solar installations can be really small, including on individual houses, reducing the transmission capacity required for last-mile and regional power transport.

Batteries are just one method to store excess power for variable (renewable) energy sources. Another is carbon sequestration to create fuel directly, called Carbon Capture and Storage ("CCS") [2]. This isn't economic yet. But it may have applications in, say, cold climates where battery performance noticeably degrades.

Solar power is the future.

[1]: https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=42915

[2]: https://www.iisd.org/articles/deep-dive/why-carbon-capture-s...

Re: California Grid Breezes Through Heatwave with Batteries

#47
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why can't anywhere that has significant elevation should just pumped storage of water during the day and use hydro on the way back down?

Batteries installed on concrete slabs are easier and cheaper, there are only so many places pumped hydro is feasible. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40919052

Batteries can also be installed basically instantly, with storage being added incrementally. Unlike a years long project of constructing a hydro battery before it enters operation.

Re: California Grid Breezes Through Heatwave with Batteries

#48
post #10

I work in the power generation industry. The large scale introduction of Battery Storage is going to be a game changer for renewables since it will allow overproduction during the day to be stored for the evening peak. I think the current fad of peaking plants is somewhat overblown, as the average large scale battery storage system will not face the issues with starting reliability that can be present on large gas tu…

> The large scale introduction of Battery Storage is going to be a game changer for renewables

Who are the major players in industry grade solutions for this?

Tesla? BYD? Hitachi? Siemens?

Re: California Grid Breezes Through Heatwave with Batteries

#49
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not an expert on this topic, but I think it comes down to cost and scalability. You have to construct a new project with custom specs for the exact site you’re on, and the permitting for a large environmental change is another drag. For large scale batteries, they all are a somewhat complex power electronic wrapper around mass produced battery cell cans or pouches that can be dropped anywhere. The cost declines o…

Not to mentioned all the dirty cheap second hand batteries becoming available as electric cars are scrapped. For grid storage second hand batteries might be fine. If taking them out of a scrapped car is feasible.

Grid battery deployment is faster than EV market penetration in the USA. This is not something that can siphon off a fraction of EV batteries. It is a huge market in its own right.

Re: California Grid Breezes Through Heatwave with Batteries

#50
post #33
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was 121º in Palm Springs and 100º in Riverside last Monday. I don't know what the population-weighted temperature was that day but that's pretty hot?

Meanwhile the San Diego heatwave is a scorching two degrees above average at 78 degrees[1]. Now if the Santa Anas start blowing during one of these inland heatwaves and the grid still holds up that will be great. [1] If this sounds like sarcasm, try living in coastal San Diego for a few years. You really acclimate to the perfect weather and 78 really does feel awfully hot. To say nothing of those freezes where it dip…

It is essentially everything but costal San Diego that has been melting. Even 20 miles difference from the coast shows a huge spike in temperatures.
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