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California Grid Breezes Through Heatwave with Batteries

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Re: California Grid Breezes Through Heatwave with Batteries

#51

Post by ZeroGravitas »

inamberclad wrote: post #32
petulla wrote: post #21

Hope other states follow. The fact Arizona is still 80%+ non-renewable is just such a missed opportunity.

Arizona is a great case where agrovoltaics could really work. Solar reduces the sun load to something reasonable and minimizes evaporation, plants cool the air under the panels. Human / nature infrastructure symbiosis.

Recent local news story on this:

"Arizona farmers turn to solar panels to shade crops, save water and generate power"

https://cronkitenews.azpbs.org/2024/07/08/arizona-drought-so...

Re: California Grid Breezes Through Heatwave with Batteries

#52

Post by skybrian »

jeffbee wrote: post #44
testfoobar wrote: post #27

The big wattage numbers are great - but it is unclear how many watt-hours can be supplied - how many hours can California's grid run with batteries? It appears that the batteries are 4 hour batteries. Two questions: is there excess solar capacity in the winter to charge the batteries? How do the batteries perform in the winter - total storage capacity and discharge rate? It is misleading to compare a battery array th…

Because of the regulatory/economic regime the state has established, all of these plants are 4h plants, or 4Wh/W if you prefer. That's the number they need to hit to get the top-tier payout from the grid operator.

I suppose they could discharge slower, though, if eventually there's not as much demand?

Re: California Grid Breezes Through Heatwave with Batteries

#53

Post by infecto »

DoingIsLearning wrote: post #48
z_rex wrote: post #10

I work in the power generation industry. The large scale introduction of Battery Storage is going to be a game changer for renewables since it will allow overproduction during the day to be stored for the evening peak. I think the current fad of peaking plants is somewhat overblown, as the average large scale battery storage system will not face the issues with starting reliability that can be present on large gas tu…

> The large scale introduction of Battery Storage is going to be a game changer for renewables Who are the major players in industry grade solutions for this? Tesla? BYD? Hitachi? Siemens?

In Texas I have seen a lot of Chinese brands.

Sungrow and CATL as examples.

Re: California Grid Breezes Through Heatwave with Batteries

#54

Post by Gibbon1 »

z_rex wrote: post #10

I work in the power generation industry. The large scale introduction of Battery Storage is going to be a game changer for renewables since it will allow overproduction during the day to be stored for the evening peak. I think the current fad of peaking plants is somewhat overblown, as the average large scale battery storage system will not face the issues with starting reliability that can be present on large gas tu…

Thing I harp on is the logistics of battery installations are fantastic in about every way.

If you have a couple of brown field acres of land next to an existing substation you can just buy and install containerized batteries. And you don't need specialized contractors to handle the job either. Pour concrete pads, forklift operators to take batteries off the truck and put them on the pad. And then standard HV techs to hook them up.

And the permitting and environmental review is nil. Go ahead try and get a pumped storage system permitted somewhere.

A fun one. Three gorges dam. You could replace the whole thing with solar and batteries for the cost it took to build it. And the area covered by solar panels would be the same as the lake behind the dam. Except you can put the solar panels on some ecologically and economically low value land where ever.

Re: California Grid Breezes Through Heatwave with Batteries

#55

Post by infecto »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #8

Batteries are absolutely destroying demand for natural gas in California: https://reneweconomy.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/calif...

Love this graph, really demonstrates the power of low cost solar and increasingly lower cost batteries.

Re: California Grid Breezes Through Heatwave with Batteries

#57

Post by Gibbon1 »

redleader55 wrote: post #42
adgjlsfhk1 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you can make batteries out of iron or sulfur. no rare minerals required.

You are right: there are a lot of proposals at the moment trying to replace lithium. I'm hopeful, but let's wait until they are widely adopted before claiming victory. Let's not forget the carbon and environmental cost of such alternative batteries are not known because they are not mass built and mass deployed.

When I read people talking about replacing lithium batteries I think of the decades of reading about material X replacing silicon in IC's and solar cells.

Re: California Grid Breezes Through Heatwave with Batteries

#58

Post by basementcat »

skhunted wrote: post #35
jmugan wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dislike right-wing silliness as much as anyone, but this whole hate against Texas is just weird. We had Montana winter weather for a week and our grid went down. I had a business partner in California during a period a few years back and we had to reschedule meetings around when he would have electricity. We should just focus on doing better instead of fighting.

The hate as you call it is not weird. It’s a reasonable response to a state that consistently enacts laws and regulations that hurt the people. You get what you vote for and people in other states have to put up with idiotic Texas politicians who vote against hurricane Sandy aid while later requesting help. Texas deserves far more “hate” than it gets.

Perhaps it would be more helpful to try to understand what underlying mechanisms have created situations in which apparently self destructive tendencies are expressed in large societies (not just Texas but in general). What can we do to improve on this?

Re: California Grid Breezes Through Heatwave with Batteries

#59

Post by theptip »

DrBazza wrote: post #25
z_rex wrote: post #10

I work in the power generation industry. The large scale introduction of Battery Storage is going to be a game changer for renewables since it will allow overproduction during the day to be stored for the evening peak. I think the current fad of peaking plants is somewhat overblown, as the average large scale battery storage system will not face the issues with starting reliability that can be present on large gas tu…

Why can't anywhere that has significant elevation should just pumped storage of water during the day and use hydro on the way back down?

There is zero chance that a mega-project like pumped hydro can be undertaken in the US in the current regulatory environment. NEPA review allows even clearly green projects like solar and wind to get bogged down in environmental review lawsuits. A project with major environmental impact like destroying an entire valley ecosystem to build a dam would be DoA.

Re: California Grid Breezes Through Heatwave with Batteries

#60

Post by candiddevmike »

cletus wrote: post #46

Here are some useful graphs showing how electricty demand varies by region, month and time of day [1]. As expected, California peaks in July because there's more demand for cooling than heating. But what's a little surprising is that July is peak demand for every region. There are many reasons why solar is so attractive as a power source, including: 1. It's the only form of power with direct electricty generation. Th…

> But what's a little surprising is that July is peak demand for every region.

Majority of homes use natural gas for heating in the winter. If they used electric heat instead, the difference would be enormous.

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