The Weird Nerd comes with trade-offs • Hacker News Board

Re: The Weird Nerd comes with trade-offs

#201

Post by doublerabbit » Sun, Jun 09, 2024, 6:59 PM UTC

pavel_lishin wrote: post #52

doublerabbit wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, moot. But in that case why keep them active in group? Why tolerate it in the first place. Maybe I'm just to compassionate.

I would suggest you check out some of the things on reddit's rpghorrorstories subreddit. Of course, we're only seeing one side of a narrative, and the stories are obviously written for an audience that expects something - but it can be rather enlightening at just how bad some people can be, and just how much some other people can put up with.

I've had my fair share. I know the stories. In the end I just started not tolerating the bull and told them go away.

As I said, I trial them out if they can't obey the first warning than out they go.

Re: The Weird Nerd comes with trade-offs

#202

Post by fragmede » Sun, Jun 09, 2024, 7:00 PM UTC

ModernMech wrote: post #149

dbtc wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The phrase has sounded weird to me for some time but here it strikes me as especially so: "the spectrum" Just one spectrum, 2 dimensions? Is that all we get? It's a linguistic short-cut, I get that, but I wonder how useful it is, how much nuance it conceals.

Picture a color wheel instead of a continuum. Here's an image that shows what I mean: https://ih1.redbubble.net/image.4683716510.9542/raf,360x360,...

Yeah, a Kiviat diagram, or radar graph

https://blog.onepatchdown.net/autism/2023/01/13/autism/

Re: The Weird Nerd comes with trade-offs

#203

Post by Aurornis » Sun, Jun 09, 2024, 7:00 PM UTC

eikenberry wrote: post #158

Aurornis wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but to make diagnosed people feel more included and part of a group, the more people get diagnosed even if it's 0.01%, the more safe the others feel because they're not alone, I've worked with younger people in tech. I'm seeing a mix of effects, positive and negative, from increased diagnosis rates. On the plus side, some people are using their diagnoses to find helpful support material, techniques, and advice. On…

How is this stance different from one that says the same thing about your race or being deaf or requiring regular injections? Seems to me this is saying that some forms of bigotry are OK and the victims of it just need to deal with it. That neural disorders aren't as real or important because you can't see them and that makes it easier for some people who have them, but at a functional level, try to make more of it t…

> How is this stance different from one that says the same thing about your race or being deaf or requiring regular injections? Seems to me this is saying that some forms of bigotry are OK and the victims of it just need to deal with it.

I never suggested discrimination based on mental health conditions is okay or encouraged. I'm just pointing out that you shouldn't put it on your resume and you can't expect it to exempt you from having to do your job. It's simple.

I don't understand your analogy to race because that doesn't make any sense and certainly isn't relevant to what I said.

As for your example of being deaf: The reality is that any disability that prevents someone from doing a job, in a way that that cannot be reasonably accommodated, means that an employer doesn't have to hire that person for the job. This makes people angry in the general sense, but the truth is that there are jobs that require certain abilities to perform. If someone was, for example, confined to a wheelchair then they would not be considered for a job loading trucks. That's "discrimination" in the general sense of the word, but it's certainly not bigotry.

I think you've either misunderstood what I was saying, or you're upset that the world isn't as idealistic as you want. The reality is that if a condition prevents someone from doing a job and it can't be reasonably accommodated, the employer isn't forced to keep paying that person and ignore their inability to do the job.

Having ADHD is a hurdle, but not something that prevents most people from doing jobs. It makes them more difficult, yes, but not impossible. If the condition is so bad that it becomes disabling (legal definition) then that's a different story, but again you're not required to employ people who have disabilities that prevent them from doing the job.

Re: The Weird Nerd comes with trade-offs

#204

Post by jdblair » Sun, Jun 09, 2024, 7:00 PM UTC

I think for a "weird nerd" to be successful, they need the support of someone (a manager, a mentor, a project leader, department head, etc.), who does have political and social savvy.

Re: The Weird Nerd comes with trade-offs

#205

Post by Aurornis » Sun, Jun 09, 2024, 7:02 PM UTC

iamdbtoo wrote: post #159

Aurornis wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but to make diagnosed people feel more included and part of a group, the more people get diagnosed even if it's 0.01%, the more safe the others feel because they're not alone, I've worked with younger people in tech. I'm seeing a mix of effects, positive and negative, from increased diagnosis rates. On the plus side, some people are using their diagnoses to find helpful support material, techniques, and advice. On…

> The educational institutions meant well, but the students took the wrong message from their accommodations and assumed it was always the world's responsibility to bend to their personal quirks rather than the other way around. This is kind of a toxic perspective and could be why you have so many problems with your neurodiverse coworkers. If you believe they should never require accommodations and are always expecte…

> If you believe they should never require accommodations and are always expected to conform to the rest of society

That's not what I said. The amount of toxic projection happening underneath these comments is wild.

Anyway, I did not say they shouldn't get accommodations. I said those accommodations do not exempt them from having to do the job.

The mistake being made is to confuse accommodations that help people do their job with "accommodations" that exempt the person from having to do the job.

Two different things! You can expect the first in the workplace. You cannot expect the second.

Re: The Weird Nerd comes with trade-offs

#206

Post by monero-xmr » Sun, Jun 09, 2024, 7:03 PM UTC

iamdbtoo wrote: post #159

Aurornis wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but to make diagnosed people feel more included and part of a group, the more people get diagnosed even if it's 0.01%, the more safe the others feel because they're not alone, I've worked with younger people in tech. I'm seeing a mix of effects, positive and negative, from increased diagnosis rates. On the plus side, some people are using their diagnoses to find helpful support material, techniques, and advice. On…

> The educational institutions meant well, but the students took the wrong message from their accommodations and assumed it was always the world's responsibility to bend to their personal quirks rather than the other way around. This is kind of a toxic perspective and could be why you have so many problems with your neurodiverse coworkers. If you believe they should never require accommodations and are always expecte…

I’m sorry, no one is going to bend their whole life to fit whatever accommodation you require. If you have a covered disability and a company legally must provide some minimal accommodation, then sure. If you are a weirdo who needs their emotional support stuffed animals surrounding the office or you break into a panic attack, you will discover life isn’t fair pretty quick.

Re: The Weird Nerd comes with trade-offs

#207

Post by antisthenes » Sun, Jun 09, 2024, 7:05 PM UTC

walt_grata wrote: post #45

ianbicking wrote: post #4

There's definitely been a move to demand individuals be good at everything... old stereotypes of the nerd brought a lot of negatives, but they were also apologetic, acknowledging the trade off, that paying attention deeply to one thing does lead to being worse at other things. The exact stereotype differed by domain... the performer who is a diva, the self destructive author, the manic artist... each with a hint of n…

I duno on some of that. Until I was about 39 I was a "weird nerd" and then my wife (Dr of special education) finally convinced me to talk to a Dr and get get tested for autism. Turns out I'm ASD 1, would have been Asperger's in the past. Autism has a very wide range of ways it shows itself.

> my wife (Dr of special education) finally convinced me to talk to a Dr and get get tested for autism. Turns out I'm ASD 1, would have been Asperger's in the past.

Can I ask candidly, what did you gain from knowing this? Presumably this didn't have much effect on you, since you seem to be fairly successful - finding a partner and getting married and presumably also having a decent job.

Seems kind of like a vanity validation for your wife rather than a benefit to you.

Re: The Weird Nerd comes with trade-offs

#208

Post by aspenmayer » Sun, Jun 09, 2024, 7:08 PM UTC

Aurornis wrote: post #197

aspenmayer wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've had to explain to numerous people that having an ADHD diagnosis doesn't, for example, exempt them from the same performance review standards as their peers at work. I can’t speak for you, but that isn’t at all accurate as far as I know. I myself would not say these kinds of things to a coworker, and definitely not to a subordinate one or one that reports to me, as I don’t work in HR or legal department, and I’…

> I can’t speak for you, but that isn’t at all accurate as far as I know. > I’m not intimately familiar with actual existing accommodations for ADHD and other conditions under the FMLA and other disability discrimination laws and regulations in the US or other countries. Why are you saying it's inaccurate if you don't understand the laws and regulations? The FMLA that you cited and linked is for emergency medical lea…

> Why are you saying it's inaccurate if you don't understand the laws and regulations?

I didn’t say I wasn’t familiar with them, I said I wasn’t intimately familiar with them.

> The FMLA that you cited and linked is for emergency medical leave, not for ADHD accommodations.

It’s about more than that, but that’s neither here nor there.

Needing to take time off regularly, irregularly, as needed, or working less than full-time at an ostensibly full-time job due to a medical condition that may or may not be a disability are accommodations that would fall under FMLA, and it would be a factor in someone being unable to meet otherwise-reasonable standards or expectations. The FMLA applies even if your medical condition isn’t considered a disability, for that matter.

That’s specifically why I said that I’m not speaking for you, because I don’t know what you know or don’t know, nor do I know what jurisdiction you operate in, but I know enough to not advise others about how to speak about coworkers’ medical issues - I just don’t do it! I don’t speak about coworkers’ medical issues, because it’s none of my business, and it’s a poor use of my time, their time, and the company’s time. It’s also not in my job description to comment on my coworkers’ medical issues.

I’d be happy to discuss this further and read any resources you may have on this subject, though. I don’t claim to be an expert, and I am amenable to reason.

Re: The Weird Nerd comes with trade-offs

#209

Post by hnthrow289570 » Sun, Jun 09, 2024, 7:08 PM UTC

akozak wrote: post #104

I have a lot of experience working with the weird nerd archetype and watching them navigate large orgs. First it's absolutely true that orgs that purport to support weird nerds will revert back to rewarding politicians. I've seen it happen, and typically has to do with who is doling out money. However, in my experience the vast majority of brilliant nerds way overextend themselves, and are much too confident outside…

I usually see both happening at the same time, but the real money still goes to the politicians.

Brilliant nerds that solve problems for the organization on their own usually don't get rewarded as much as politicians despite the skills perhaps being more rare at the organization than politics.

For example, you could deep dive into a bug that's been hanging around, finally find the really technical solution to it, but most of the money holders won't be able to appraise that value from the technical details alone.

In general, simply giving away things to companies will usually get you taken advantage of (usually not maliciously).

Doing a tour to explain why it's a problem first, then providing the solution, is the much better alternative.

It really is true that it's a thankless job if everything is working well and you're being proactive by fixing problems before they become a problem.

There are exceptions where the money holders can deal with the technical details and don't need to be sold on the problem first, but it's rare and usually those are prestigious jobs in close proximity to lots money.

Re: The Weird Nerd comes with trade-offs

#210

Post by antisthenes » Sun, Jun 09, 2024, 7:10 PM UTC

cbozeman wrote: post #171

bradleyjg wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

However, in my experience the vast majority of brilliant nerds way overextend themselves, and are much too confident outside their domain. They're also much more likely to be jerks and will tumble from conflict to conflict until they get their way by attrition or status. Conflicts are strangely more personal because so much ego is tied up into it. They're more likely to assume they're right in every (non-tech/science…

"You're out of your depth." That's what you do. A lot of very smart people think because they're very smart they have some kind of exceptional insight into the inner workings of all things. They don't. And they need to be reminded of that. Intelligence allows someone to gain that insight faster than those in the middle of the bell curve of IQ, but it doesn't magically confer it . It still takes time, reading, researc…

> A lot of very smart people think because they're very smart they have some kind of exceptional insight into the inner workings of all things. They don't. And they need to be reminded of that.

When you talk to people, you have no idea how much time they've spent before that conversation gaining insight. Maybe their simple phrase is a culmination of several years of research and insight, whereas for you, you just thought about this topic yesterday.

Seems like normies need to be reminded of that way more frequently than nerds.