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Israel reportedly used fake social accounts to garner support from US lawmakers

haaretz.com

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Re: Israel reportedly used fake social accounts to garner support from US lawmakers

#681

Post by YeGoblynQueenne »

StockHuman wrote: post #522
YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #479

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it? Pragmatically speaking, who is going to make it end in tears? Nobody in the region really wants a war with Israel: the Arab countries got their fill of it and Iran sure doesn't want to get into an actual war. And if anyone gets any big ideas, there's always Uncle Sam (and Uncle Sam's Western allies; who, btw, include Turkey). I understand that people want to see things put right, but we must understand what wo…

US support, extraordinarily stalwart as it is, has shown its first cracks. Western allies are considerably less religiously motivated, or defense-industrial-linkage motivated, and can’t be counted on in the same way. Recent ICC news can be read as an indicator of prevailing winds. The US is not above dropping allies when politically convenient, and as Israel burns its public image (or seeks geopolitical independence)…

I don't completely disagree. It's clear that the US does not want war in the Middle East: it's bad for business and I think that the US too has had its fill of fighting. I'm also kind of getting the vibe that the US administration is not at all happy with the Israeli government's actions.

But that doesn't change the geopolicical situation: Israel is an important ally of the US in the Middle East and the US is an important ally of NATO, so whatever Israel does, the US will stand behind, and Nato will stand behind the US.

In any case, if the US wanted to stop the massacre of Palestinians in Gaza they would have done it months ago. I don't think they really care, and if the Republicans come into power, with all the looney tune characters from the Christian Zionist right in their ranks, I don't think there's going to be more care.

But, hey, we'll see what happens. It would be great if public sentiment and opinion counted for something in modern liberal democracies, but we have the recent enough example of the war on Iraq and the gigantic demonstrations against it in the UK, and how they didn't change one thing in the decisions of a liberal British PM.

Re: Israel reportedly used fake social accounts to garner support from US lawmakers

#682

Post by raxxorraxor »

A_D_E_P_T wrote: post #407
myth_drannon wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It appears the government has no clear strategy and lacks the famous "the day after" plan. But from IDF side, it took two weeks to take over the whole border with Egypt. Rafah is empty and by the end of the month, it will be Israeli. So yes, they spent months not doing anything while the government was trying to secure hostage release and Biden was screaming do not touch Rafah. But in general what strategy do you nee…

> But in general what strategy do you need? Take over, destroy the military infra and prevent smuggling. That's all that is needed. Gaza is thousand years back, it will never recover. It is not a threat anymore in any meaningful way. Impressively amoral post, but this is insanity. (1) Israel doesn't exist in a vacuum. It is not self-sufficient. (2) There's something monstrous about keeping 2M people herded up in a cl…

Your prediction isn't substantial. Israel will never win a popularity contest, but that is irrelevant. It also isn't true that all young people are firmly on one side of this issue, in fact they are probably a minority, even if they can be pretty loud. Strong opinions and little information often comes in a package.

Israel exists because Jews were despised. They did not have support when the country was founded and got weapons on the black market. Today their security situation is a lot more stable.

There are western firms/nations trading with Russia today, money always beats popularity, geostrategic interest beats popularity, pretty much anything beats unsolicited opinions from college students on Israel.

In fact I believe support for Gaza will need a lot more political capital in the future and the countries supporting them actively will try to withdraw from this conflict.

The few Gazans that sold products on the world market will have their existence evaporated, since they had to trade through Israel. Those that worked in Israel probably will not return for a very long time.

People pointing their fingers at Israel often simply lack perspective.

Re: Israel reportedly used fake social accounts to garner support from US lawmakers

#683

Post by WhackyIdeas »

FireBeyond wrote: post #250
nemo44x wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I'm going to flag this as some weird eugenics BS. "Average IQ of 83" ... so the average person is "borderline mentally disabled"?

Yeah, it kind of reminded me of the garbage my old mate and his girlfriend used to spout when I was friends with them - ‘black people have low IQ’ crap. One of the reasons I avoid making friends - I have always attracted nutters.

Re: Israel reportedly used fake social accounts to garner support from US lawmakers

#684

Post by nerdjon »

ajross wrote: post #549
nerdjon wrote: post #521

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is quite a simplistic view. Generally, Propaganda is used to sway opinion, get action, or similar when people may not be inclined a certain way on their own. Ask yourself this: if there was not opposition to what Israel is doing right now, would they have made these billboards. Most likely no. Would Rosie the Riveter happen if there was not a need for Woman in the workforce during the war? Could keep giving exam…

> sway opinion, get action, or similar when people may not be inclined a certain way on their own. This is tiresome and seems like it's in bad faith. Once more: that's just a definition for "argument". You can apply it to "propaganda" if you insist, but I can only repeat that this is not the way others interpret it. You don't go around calling your friends propagandists when they try to sway your opinion, so don't do…

I find it tiresome that I have given you 2 examples of established propaganda, there really is no debate as to whether or not these are considered propaganda, that do not fit your definition and you continue to ignore those.

Yes propaganda tends to be negative, but my point (again with examples to back up my point) is that it does not have to be.

You claim others do not see it that way, but that is obviously not true. Or we would not consider Rosy the Riveter as propaganda. It does not fit your definition.

Ignoring that there are examples of propaganda does not make your definition correct.

The reality is these words are murky, what is the line between advertising and propaganda. and similar comparisons.

But I will die on this hill and it is well established by this point, propaganda does not have to be negative.

Unless you are going to acknowledge rosy the riveter and either explain how that is not propaganda (which for the record you would be in the minority with that opinion) or explain how it was negative or misleading I see no point in continuing this conversation.

Re: Israel reportedly used fake social accounts to garner support from US lawmakers

#685

Post by mupuff1234 »

cempaka wrote: post #130
nerdjon wrote: post #123

I find it quite concerning just how much propaganda the US seems to get from Israel. Where I live there are big billboards around, I regularly see ads on YouTube. I know propaganda is a thing, but it feels like we are getting more about a foreign government than our own. I feel like before what is going on now I was aware of some of the groups responsible for this being a thing, but was not fully aware just how much…

The best part is when it comes from our own "newspaper of record" i.e. with the extraordinarily dubious "mass rape" article the NYT published. They finally dismissed the one Israel-connected reporter who had liked tweets calling for a brutal response against Gaza, but that of course has seen about one billionth the attention that her original claims continue to receive. You also get stuff like the POTUS repeating lie…

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/06/world/middleeast/israel-g...

That is currently the NYT headline - How can you call it Israeli propaganda is beyond me.

Re: Israel reportedly used fake social accounts to garner support from US lawmakers

#686

Post by heroprotagonist »

StanislavPetrov wrote: post #665
chipdart wrote: post #656

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> that Russia has "interfered" with US politics that has been released by the US government in the last 10 years adds up to (...) So you acknowledge that it's quite clear that Russia indeed is systematically interfering, and your only claim is to call "what about" some other country?

No, I acknowledge that some interference by Russia and other countries is likely but not clear, since no clear evidence has ever been publicly offered. The only public evidence of clear, systemic, long-standing and ongoing interference we have is that of Israel.

Well, there are the indictments against 13 Russian nationals by the DOJ, and all the materials necessary for that.

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/grand-jury-indicts-thirteen-r...

And there are reports from the intelligence services which are very clear as well, for example:

https://www.dni.gov/files/documents/ICA_2017_01.pdf

A brief search will come up with much more.

The only question is why you haven't found any of this evidence, haven't believed any of it, or why you would argue such an easily disproven position without ever taking a few minutes to find out if the position you argue is still true many years after you've formed it.

It's almost as if you heard an opinion once or multiple times, perhaps from people or political figures you trusted. Then you internalized that opinion and it took on the attributes of 'belief' and haven't ever questioned it since it was formed. This belief became bound up with other things you believe, and now the defense mechanisms your brain uses to support 'belief' are also supporting this opinion in contradiction to facts that have been proven over the past years.

These defense mechanisms exist in your brain for good reasons, but they are also a way that propaganda exploits your brain's natural tendency to behave. It's difficult for victims of this to see it for what it is, confront their 'belief' system and admit they've been tricked. They have to overcome the feeling that it's their own fault they were tricked and their brain was exploited, which many never do, even though it's really not their fault that the human brain works the way it does. Propaganda is insidious, and particularly treacherous in the way that it convinces people to argue on its behalf, and that the act of doing so reinforces the hold the propaganda has on the person.

Re: Israel reportedly used fake social accounts to garner support from US lawmakers

#687

Post by ajross »

nerdjon wrote: post #684
ajross wrote: post #549

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> sway opinion, get action, or similar when people may not be inclined a certain way on their own. This is tiresome and seems like it's in bad faith. Once more: that's just a definition for "argument". You can apply it to "propaganda" if you insist, but I can only repeat that this is not the way others interpret it. You don't go around calling your friends propagandists when they try to sway your opinion, so don't do…

I find it tiresome that I have given you 2 examples of established propaganda, there really is no debate as to whether or not these are considered propaganda, that do not fit your definition and you continue to ignore those. Yes propaganda tends to be negative, but my point (again with examples to back up my point) is that it does not have to be. You claim others do not see it that way, but that is obviously not true…

The question isn't about your digressions and nitpickery about whatever definition you think I proposed (which I'm ignoring quite deliberately), it's whether a billboard by a non-profit can reasonably be considered "propaganda". And your insistence on digressions instead of defending that (IMHO ridiculous) notion is the part I called "bad faith"

Just stop. JewBelong is a group of your fellow americans and you need to treat them like that and not call them propagandists as a way of dismissing their ideas. Your freakout here is everything wrong with Trumpist america, and I hate it.

Re: Israel reportedly used fake social accounts to garner support from US lawmakers

#688

Post by nemo44x »

WhackyIdeas wrote: post #683
FireBeyond wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm going to flag this as some weird eugenics BS. "Average IQ of 83" ... so the average person is "borderline mentally disabled"?

Yeah, it kind of reminded me of the garbage my old mate and his girlfriend used to spout when I was friends with them - ‘black people have low IQ’ crap. One of the reasons I avoid making friends - I have always attracted nutters.

[flagged]

Re: Israel reportedly used fake social accounts to garner support from US lawmakers

#689

Post by [deleted] »

raxxorraxor wrote: post #682
A_D_E_P_T wrote: post #407

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But in general what strategy do you need? Take over, destroy the military infra and prevent smuggling. That's all that is needed. Gaza is thousand years back, it will never recover. It is not a threat anymore in any meaningful way. Impressively amoral post, but this is insanity. (1) Israel doesn't exist in a vacuum. It is not self-sufficient. (2) There's something monstrous about keeping 2M people herded up in a cl…

Your prediction isn't substantial. Israel will never win a popularity contest, but that is irrelevant. It also isn't true that all young people are firmly on one side of this issue, in fact they are probably a minority, even if they can be pretty loud. Strong opinions and little information often comes in a package. Israel exists because Jews were despised. They did not have support when the country was founded and g…

[deleted]

Re: Israel reportedly used fake social accounts to garner support from US lawmakers

#690

Post by amitport »

School-Cotton wrote: post #499
amitport wrote: post #495

Earlier quoted context omitted.

500k Palestinians in Lebanon, 2nd-3rd generation "refugees", are not allowed to be citizens and do not have a vote. (Palestinians are the only people in the world who the UN allow to inherit this status) And now... Iraq?! you must be joking or cynic

That is a fair point. The way Lebanon treats Palestinians is terrible and they should not get a free pass when people criticize Israel.

The free pass is given by the UN.

Imagine if in the last century, the billions of refugees and descendants of refugees of the world, would all still be kept as ethernal refugees.

The nations of the world are a condescending bunch. Implying that the Palestinians are not to be treated as equals to Germans, Ukrainians, etc.,

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