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Israel shuts down local Al Jazeera offices

theguardian.com

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Re: Israel shuts down local Al Jazeera offices

#731

Post by int_19h »

easyThrowaway wrote: post #679
int_19h wrote: post #631

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IIRC something like 80% of Israeli citizens approve of the way Israel is fighting in Gaza, according to the polls.

it would be interesting to know to what extent they're aware of what's actually happening in Gaza. Also, given the vilification we've seen of those expressing sympathy for a two-state solution or the general Palestinian population in the last 30 years, I'd be wary to take at face value any poll without being sure they were done with some sort of guarantee of anonymity. I'm pretty sure you'd get even more one-sided ap…

I'm pretty sure you're right on that last bit, but I don't think that wouldn't be reflecting the reality in UK or Spain, either. People are generally pretty quick to get into an "us vs them" mode when threatened, and, once there, will come up with increasingly ludicrous justifications even for the nastiest stuff.

And yes, in Israel right now it's probably somewhat affected by social (and sometimes legal) consequences of dissent... but those very social consequences are in and of themselves indicative of supermajority support. Point being, even if it is, say, 65% rather than 80%, that still means that opposition has no power, and so nothing is really in its hands at the moment.

Re: Israel shuts down local Al Jazeera offices

#733

Post by hardlianotion »

awuji wrote: post #722
hardlianotion wrote: post #707

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you believe that RT is an organisation that is not interested in the truth, but is set up purely to disrupt and disturb, then a government can reasonably want to prevent its operation. Adding plausible noise to information causes people to have to do much more work to discern between what is true and what is not, time that many people do not have. A reluctance to ban a bad-faith organisation is good: a moral socie…

There are two things wrong with this argument. One, it implies that there isn't a better way to deal with an such a malicious organization. And two, it doesn't acknowledge how such a ban creates an obvious opening for abuse. Holding up the classic Western ideals of Democracy and Freedom is hard because it is much deeper than simply giving people the freedom to access all information so they can form their own opinion…

The argument in no way implies that there is no other way to deal with malice, only that it is an option. The argument further implies that the decision to censor should not be taken lightly. When censorship is being considered in a democratic society, the decision to do so must be argued and debated. Note that it is perfectly possible to be well-educated and still be taken in by bullshit and false information - it happens all the time. Education is a good, not a nostrum, and durable opponents of truth are also motivated, sophisticated and smart. Democracy is about the means you use to undertake drastic decisions, and in no way rules out the restriction of unseemly behaviour.

Maybe explain why my analogy is not useful - I’ll do the same for you. What I initially said did not in any way imply banning should be quick or easy, while “fast food” is not, in itself, bad for you, but a restricted and monotonous diet of anything can well be.

Re: Israel shuts down local Al Jazeera offices

#734

Post by raxxorraxor »

cies wrote: post #682
benja123 wrote: post #646

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Israeli here - I just checked and I can still access the site in both English and Arabic. My guess is you won’t actually see the site being blocked.

After rt.com et al were blocked in the EU they also kept working for a few more week/months before I had to use a mirror/VPN to read the new paper of "the enemy". Side note: I though being able to read the news of the enemy was testimony to the moral high ground of a "modern free and democratic society". No more moral high ground if you are trying to shape the perception of the public with censorship.

It usually is, but more neurotic elements in western governments often tend to not give much on values at all.

Re: Israel shuts down local Al Jazeera offices

#735

Post by TiredOfLife »

no_exit wrote: post #245
verdverm wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is unlikely that reliable numbers will come out of Gaza with the media blackout and two sides who both want to present information "favorably" At least until the war has subsided and independent orgs can gain access.

Gaza Health Ministry numbers are a reliable floor, as confirmed by numerous organizations like the US State Department. The real count probably above 100k dead so far.

I think you mean ceiling.

Re: Israel shuts down local Al Jazeera offices

#736

Post by pastage »

cpursley wrote: post #711
mrtksn wrote: post #695

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m also quite concerned about the Western world adopting the Chinese style of governance but censorship at wartime is very different from censorship at peace time. False information leading to spreading misguided ideas is deadly at wartime because there is no time to address it. I definitely don’t support Italy blocking websites or the US blocking apps.

What about all the misleading news (i.e., positive spin) in the Western world's "free press" that lead to many believing that Ukraine had a chance for a counter offensive (against even basic military thinking and logic). Didn't that lead to unnecessary suffering and deaths during war time (vs say an alternative, beefing up defense lines)? That's just a random recent example. Another older one is the the media going n…

I do not understand how supporting Ukraine can lead to more suffering, there is a long history of implerialism causing suffering so there is a rather large opposition against it in the west. What Russia does to Ukraine is pretty gruesome, it is not even considered a country in russian intellectual discourse that is a bad sign.

When we talk about the press and politics these kind of cynical tones are not helpfull. The WMD issue was heavily discussed and debated. The same as Gaza is now, it is interesting what issues manage to be changed by public opinion and what that really is, this is not only an issue with the press. People and groups tend to think that their own opinions should matter, that is only true if you managed to get enough people to care about your opinions and even then you might need a referendum.

Re: Israel shuts down local Al Jazeera offices

#737

Post by raxxorraxor »

mrtksn wrote: post #695
guappa wrote: post #655

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a bit ironic how we are constantly reminded that china isn't a democracy because they have censorship, while we are free and democratic and don't have censorship (except we do). Italy is passing laws to be able to block websites within 30 minutes, without any oversight from any judge. (more details here, link in italian https://stop-piracy-shield.it/ )

I’m also quite concerned about the Western world adopting the Chinese style of governance but censorship at wartime is very different from censorship at peace time. False information leading to spreading misguided ideas is deadly at wartime because there is no time to address it. I definitely don’t support Italy blocking websites or the US blocking apps.

It isn't and shouldn't be different in war time either. If you allow this exception, you will just always be at war.

Censorship for security reasons isn't a new concept.

Re: Israel shuts down local Al Jazeera offices

#738

Post by Supermancho »

mrtksn wrote: post #589
Aerbil313 wrote: post #564

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's correct and IMHO its the right thing to do I'm in awe. I'm pro-censorship myself as a general principle (though not in this obviously unjustifiable instance of it), but please be coherent. How come the current semi-popular opinion on HN happens to be pro-censorship, when HN community is against censorship in every other situation?

I’m not pro-censorship at all. I just think media is part of the warfare and it’s normal to try to control it during a war. I am anti war in first place, if you don’t want censorship don’t start a war.

As a complete aside, I enjoy your posts. Cheers.

Re: Israel shuts down local Al Jazeera offices

#739

Post by sdk77 »

jurmous wrote: post #691
angra_mainyu wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

rt.com and their twitter are blocked. How are you not aware of this? It's been a few years already. The EU ruled on this. https://paste.pics/4b60ebef97d3b7fbb6aba74637c2e818 https://paste.pics/0cb2ae98754165dad5cf086e75c4cc31

I am in the Netherlands and I am able to visit rt.com without VPN.

Me too. I didn't even know about this blockade. I'm using T-Mobile fiber internet and rt.com loads just fine.

Re: Israel shuts down local Al Jazeera offices

#740

Post by bamboozled »

objektif wrote: post #512
bamboozled wrote: post #502

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is fine but you have to realise that war isn’t just about bombs. It’s about information too. An information war. In order to make up your mind correctly you need to be feed accurate information. Al Jazeera making up causality figures in real-time isn’t how you make up your mind.

Do you really think say if you listen to US MSM you will make up your mind correctly?. They are constantly making up stuff and omitting facts to influence public opinion.

Well at this point, I'm not so sure some of what I've seen on US MSM isn't created by foreign interference.

Anyway, I get your point but the difference here is this, you're allowed to ask questions like that in the very places where this nonsense is being fabricated.

That same toxic propaganda shouldn't be allowed to spread freely and unabated within our information space or we become those very dystopias we try to avoid.

I think this blind belief that "all information" is part of "free speech" is our Achilles heel, it might destroy our country.

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