Mental health in software engineering • Hacker News Board

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#291

Post by throwaway2037 » Fri, Apr 12, 2024, 1:32 AM UTC

ToucanLoucan wrote: post #235

sandworm101 wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> >You cannot take a sick day by telling your team, “I have mental issues and need a day off.” I'm in an environment (military) were we actively work to prevent this. I have lots of kids (18-20yo) with mental health issues that are not helped by being allowed to take time off so casually. Our mental health experts want to keep people working because having them sit at home drinking/gaming does nothing. I have seen ki…

It varies from person to person, but speaking for myself, getting back to work is incredibly good for me after I've experienced something terrible. The structure, the feeling of "normal," is better therapy than many give it credit for. Now granted, a big part of that is because I thoroughly enjoy my work and my manager looks out for my well-being, as do I for my subordinates. I know plenty of people, friends and fami…

    > I have one friend who's simply unable to attend therapy because his insurance is shit and he's in too much debt to take on another.

Most therapists offer sliding scale. Your friend should try that.

    > he gets shit from his manager for taking "mental health days" so he doesn't, he just says he has the flu

I do exactly the same, and I recommend it for others. There is still a lot of social stigma around mental health issues. Your boss doesn't need to know why you are sick. One thing I tell myself as I get older: "There is no Academy Award for the fewest number of sick days." It's OK to take a sick day every two months for your mental health.

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#292

Post by teaearlgraycold » Fri, Apr 12, 2024, 1:39 AM UTC

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #285

makk wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> most deadlines were entirely arbitrary Yes. As are most tasks, in my experience. Looking back on your almost 30 years, what percent of tasks could have been skipped entirely and, in the long run, it wouldn't have mattered? For me, it's easily >50% ... catch me on a grumpy day and I'd say it's closer to 90%.

Honestly, most companies and projects fail completely. In my 25ish year career I can only think of a handful of lines of code that I've written that are still in production (or that I think might still be in production) and only a few employers that still exist. When you pan out far enough it all seems a bit silly.

Depends where you work. Code I wrote for the government may live on for far too long…

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#293

Post by yoyohello13 » Fri, Apr 12, 2024, 1:42 AM UTC

sz4kerto wrote: post #167

JohnMakin wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the strongest skills as a business facing developer is being able to say no.

Many people misunderstand this. Just saying 'no' and being firm won't make you successful, it's not a very useful. Saying 'no' while convincing others that 'no' is actually the best strategy is a great skill.

I like the redirection strategy. Find something easier to do and convince them it's better. Same strategy works for training dogs.

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#294

Post by Ecoste » Fri, Apr 12, 2024, 1:44 AM UTC

Zenzero wrote: post #268

david-gpu wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> While it may sound insensitive, software engineering is nowhere near as complex or stressful as many (but not all) medical roles. It is both mentally and physically less taxing As much as I respect your personal experience, I think you make a mistake in assuming that it is universal. Further, you are also making the mistake of invalidating other people's individual experiences based on your perception of what the a…

I hear what you're saying, but I don't feel I said it was universal in the sense that you're describing it. On the whole I would rate the average software engineer as having a less stressful life than the average doctor. I acknowledge that there are outliers and individual experiences that go against the average. That said, I would argue that you underestimate the number of people in medicine who are burnt out. Many…

Which studies? I've checked a few Google results and none of them showed health-care even near the top, which is suspiciously surprising to me.

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#295

Post by jahewson » Fri, Apr 12, 2024, 1:51 AM UTC

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #285

makk wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> most deadlines were entirely arbitrary Yes. As are most tasks, in my experience. Looking back on your almost 30 years, what percent of tasks could have been skipped entirely and, in the long run, it wouldn't have mattered? For me, it's easily >50% ... catch me on a grumpy day and I'd say it's closer to 90%.

Honestly, most companies and projects fail completely. In my 25ish year career I can only think of a handful of lines of code that I've written that are still in production (or that I think might still be in production) and only a few employers that still exist. When you pan out far enough it all seems a bit silly.

But for a beautiful moment in time we created a lot of value for shareholders.

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#296

Post by krimskrams » Fri, Apr 12, 2024, 1:53 AM UTC

nox101 wrote: post #280

StillBored wrote: post #267

In almost 30 years of software engineering, I came to the conclusion years ago that most deadlines were entirely arbitrary. The business isn't going to fail if you slip a week, or frequently even six months and if it does its probably not the fault of engineering unless its so dysfunctional as to repeatably blow through its own delivery estimates. Sure there are regulatory deadlines, customer POC or delivery deadline…

It depends on the industry. Video games are still sold at retails stores (Target, Best Buy, ...). Those stores have to coordinate what is going to be on their shelves months in advance (6+)? So you promise your game will be ready and in a package and at their loading dock by November 15th. If you miss the deadline their shelf is empty of product since its spot was reserved for you. Other customer electronics have sim…

What do you think about the other side of the video game industry where games are distributed digitally? Most PC games nowadays are distributed this way and even consoles are moving in this direction too. There is so much more to it than just aligning marketing and distribution with the development cycle.

Time and time again, news breaks out about terrible working conditions and crunch culture being so ingrained and standard in this industry. Many cases come from studios that mainly distribute their games digitally. So many AAA titles nowadays are released half-finished, broken and rushed for the sake of meeting next quarter's quotas at the expense of the company's employees mental health (Ubisoft for instance), and in some cases, their lives (Activision Blizzard).

The fact that some developers are unjustly taking heat, blame and pressure from their own playerbase is not the saddest part. Video game journalists are disincentivised from talking about it from fear of being blacklisted.

I find that looking at it from the traditional brick-and-mortar perspective misses a dark side of this industry that is often entirely ignored, or treated as an open secret. Crunch can be avoided. Nintendo and Mojang have delayed releases to avoid crunch, yet one of the two also deals with physical retail copies. This is a management/investor pressure/culture/people issue.

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#297

Post by bvan » Fri, Apr 12, 2024, 2:01 AM UTC

Not to be too cheeky, but take javascript out to the woodshed and I expect a marked improvement in mental health all around.

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#298

Post by throwaway5959 » Fri, Apr 12, 2024, 2:04 AM UTC

nox101 wrote: post #280

StillBored wrote: post #267

In almost 30 years of software engineering, I came to the conclusion years ago that most deadlines were entirely arbitrary. The business isn't going to fail if you slip a week, or frequently even six months and if it does its probably not the fault of engineering unless its so dysfunctional as to repeatably blow through its own delivery estimates. Sure there are regulatory deadlines, customer POC or delivery deadline…

It depends on the industry. Video games are still sold at retails stores (Target, Best Buy, ...). Those stores have to coordinate what is going to be on their shelves months in advance (6+)? So you promise your game will be ready and in a package and at their loading dock by November 15th. If you miss the deadline their shelf is empty of product since its spot was reserved for you. Other customer electronics have sim…

I know this was just an example, but in the case of video game sales, they’re all going to be digital in the next console generation (if not, in the one after that). Then all of that retail space will be reclaimed for other purposes.

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#299

Post by jahewson » Fri, Apr 12, 2024, 2:07 AM UTC

Zenzero wrote: post #237

chollida1 wrote: post #177

I'm not terribly convinced that software engineering is harder on someone mental health than being a doctor, lawyer, sales, engineer, professional athlete, teacher, or any other white collar profession is. All of these have their specific stressors, all of these professions have loads of articles about how people are leaving these professions due to how hard they are. All of these jobs tend to lead to them consuming…

As someone who crossed over from medicine, I can attest that software engineers have it very very good. Appreciate what you have. I accept everyone's personal experiences with bad management, unreasonable timelines, and uninspiring projects, but those things are everywhere. Now add in patients and their families having the worst days of their lives in your presence day after day, high-pressure decision making, not ge…

You’re wrong about the mentally taxing bit because you’re comparing Apples and Oranges. Most doctors are not spending solid 4hr blocks in flow focusing on a highly complex problem (surgeons being the obvious exception) but instead dealing with a sort of multi-tasking complexity which is a completely different type of mental taxation.

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#300

Post by Phiwise_ » Fri, Apr 12, 2024, 2:08 AM UTC

bxguff wrote: post #209

hayst4ck wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doctor, lawyer, and athlete are "jock" professions, while software engineering is very much a "nerd" profession. These words represent status and general level of attractiveness and therefore access to attention and sex. Doctors, lawyers, teachers, and professional athletes all experience social reward and/or social contexts to their work. Software engineering is interfacing with an unthinking, unfeeling machine for…

any person earnestly applying a nerd and jock mentality to adult life should find a nice patch of grass to touch and talk to more people

Did you read more than the first sentence of this comment before replying? I'm up in the air on it but it deserves more discussion and less mental laziness than you're showing here.