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Mental health in software engineering

vadimkravcenko.com

231–240 of 440 posts

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#231
What in software engineering adds more than the usual stress to working?

- Automation is the rule, not the exception. Replace your own work with a script, whenever you can.

- Our work product in theory works forever (i.e., until conditions change). You really are not needed when you're done. Script monkeys can copy and fix your stuff.

- New technologies and platforms: hardware drives software and vice-versa, leading to frequent choices whether to upgrade to enjoy new benefits. Your skills become dated, and the process of upgrading requires whole-world knowledge no one has.

- High competition: with low barriers to entry, you can do great stuff but still be a smidge worse, and lose the entire race. Close is crazy-making.

- Low management: with automation the professional process, the employee-manager ratio tends to be very high, typically with senior technicians enlisted for administration (which also makes them more compliant). As a result, employees are not buffered from business forces.

NO other profession has all or even most of these features. The closest I can think of is the bench scientist (and they might be in a worse position b/c they have very few alternatives). And AI will amplify both automation and new technologies and will likely increase the employee/manager ratio.

But ironically, few professions offer as much leeway for mental derangement. I'm shocked how off some people are, but they still function just fine, because the main determinants of productivity is whatever weird programming model evolved at the company: master that, and you can perform well, so long as you avoid triggering your manager or someone important.

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#232

I'm not terribly convinced that software engineering is harder on someone mental health than being a doctor, lawyer, sales, engineer, professional athlete, teacher, or any other white collar profession is. All of these have their specific stressors, all of these professions have loads of articles about how people are leaving these professions due to how hard they are. All of these jobs tend to lead to them consuming…

I can't remember any of my 10+ SWE jobs where anyone even asked what sickness my sick day was for.

Certainly not for a single day!

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You need wins to feel good. Or, projects with finish lines. But many projects go on year after year with no finish lines, ever, unless you or the company runs out of juice, or you move to a different company to do the same thing. In web dev, launch day is the closest you get, but it’s not a real finish line. Hitting kpi targets sort of counts, but it’s not psychologically satisfying like finishing a table or a piece…

Only because programmers use up thier artistic juices at work. Plenty of my friends who are payroll or work in warehouses do not have any mental investment into work and use that energy outside of work to write, quilt, or do stimulating activities of thier own choice. For me after work I put on Judge Judy and let my brain rot

Indeed! Software development is both knowledge, and creative work, but the industry treats us like replaceable cogs in an assembly line, which is NOT knowledge or creative work. We even utilize work tracking systems made FOR assembly line work, like kanban.

We KNOW that using your brain like that leads to mental exhaustion, in exactly the same way we know a tradey kneeling while they do carpet all workweek will have fucked up knees in twenty years. We also have clear scientific study that you physically cannot do knowledge work effectively for 40 hours a week, and actually start LOSING productive knowledge work performance after about 36 hours a week.

The way that I describe it to people is imagine you really like Sudoku puzzles, but now you have been contracted to do the hardest possible Sudoku puzzles you are capable of for 40 hours a week. Sure monday might be a blast, but by thursday your brain HURTS, and is physically tired. The human brain chews through A LOT of energy, and puts out A LOT of metabolites while doing hard thinking stuff, like knowledge work. Then you take your weekend where you desperately try and catch up on the household stuff you've been putting off because you get off work and FEEL dumb, because your brain desperately wants to turn off, so you scramble to get some of it done, and then it's monday again.

Meanwhile, the whole time that you're struggling with using something that isn't meant to be used 8 straight hours a day (unlike our heart or leg muscles which ARE optimized around constant usage), you're basically being gaslit by the whole system. "This task is a medium" except it wasn't groomed properly and of course there's twice as much work, but you aren't allowed to modify the ticket or change how you are working on things because a guy who spends all day putting numbers into a premade Excel sheet tells you that your "predictability" is going down, or that your "throughput" is inconsistent, as if there even SHOULD be consistency in a software project that does very different things and systems in different stages of the project, and after you spent 16 years learning ironclad math rules and 4 years learning Computer Science at your school of choice, you go into the field, and find that ANY bug is possible in modern computing, and every bug WILL be insane and flow through thirteen different abstraction layers and whisper demonic thoughts into your ear and now you get fucking PTSD whenever your mom asks you "how could this bug happen in my iPhone" and you're like "hey man IDK probably the bluetooth stack corrupted the vibration motor controller and now your phone will play only country music whenever you get a text from your brother in law", or your main app crashes because there's a damn bug in uWSGI where if you use any other C based code, it will inevitably fucking SEGFAULT because uWSGI goes out of it's way to dealloc during shutdown and manages to dealloc things that don't belong to it and the group who builds uWSGI has ignored the bug for a decade, and nobody fucking gets it because in other knowledge based work fields, nobody scoffs when you say "no you cannot use chemistry to turn lead into gold", and you don't find that occasionally your simple adding NaOH to water actually results in an acidic solution somehow because a completely disconnected reaction happened in the other room where someone used the wrong brand of sulphuric acid in a reaction and now the entire lab is cursed...

Fuck I still have like 35 more years of this until I can retire and I'm borderline useless at anything else

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the strongest skills as a business facing developer is being able to say no.

Many people misunderstand this. Just saying 'no' and being firm won't make you successful, it's not a very useful. Saying 'no' while convincing others that 'no' is actually the best strategy is a great skill.

A good way to say "no" is, "yes, but then the thing I'm working on will not be done".

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#235

I'm not terribly convinced that software engineering is harder on someone mental health than being a doctor, lawyer, sales, engineer, professional athlete, teacher, or any other white collar profession is. All of these have their specific stressors, all of these professions have loads of articles about how people are leaving these professions due to how hard they are. All of these jobs tend to lead to them consuming…

> >You cannot take a sick day by telling your team, “I have mental issues and need a day off.” I'm in an environment (military) were we actively work to prevent this. I have lots of kids (18-20yo) with mental health issues that are not helped by being allowed to take time off so casually. Our mental health experts want to keep people working because having them sit at home drinking/gaming does nothing. I have seen ki…

It varies from person to person, but speaking for myself, getting back to work is incredibly good for me after I've experienced something terrible. The structure, the feeling of "normal," is better therapy than many give it credit for. Now granted, a big part of that is because I thoroughly enjoy my work and my manager looks out for my well-being, as do I for my subordinates. I know plenty of people, friends and family, who loathe their return to work precisely because that's not the case for them.

As to the GP's question:

> Has any company come out against mental health in the past 20 years?

Certainly not, but there are innumerable companies, software and otherwise, that while paying useless lipservice to the concept of taking care of employees, absolutely do not follow through. I have one friend who's simply unable to attend therapy because his insurance is shit and he's in too much debt to take on another. His employer has all kinds of things to say about how much they take care of their own, but he gets shit from his manager for taking "mental health days" so he doesn't, he just says he has the flu. Mind you he's no burger flipper, he's a seasoned sysadmin.

And, lest we forget that outside our IT professions, it's even worse. My wife is a cook and has bounced from one awful workplace to another many times, her treatment running the gamut from benign neglect to outright hostility at the notion of needing mental healthcare.

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was born in a tiny village in a poor country where local politicians literally banned wifi in schools because apparently "radiowaves cause autism and homosexuality". I'm not joking. This was the official governmental position. In 2017. You can imagine technical literacy of anyone I had contact with as a child, years before that. Today I work as an engineer at a known American corporation, slowly but surely moving u…

War, war never changes. Once you think about what we do as a form of combat, be it sparring in a classroom setting with kid gloves on or an all out bare knuckle street brawl, what we do is a form of grappling combat. You are right about dedicating 100% of your life to be where you are. In my experience in the industry there are two types of developers, those who do it as a job and those who live it as a life. No disr…

Pfsh. I sign off at 1700 and then code on my own stuff. |]

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#237

I'm not terribly convinced that software engineering is harder on someone mental health than being a doctor, lawyer, sales, engineer, professional athlete, teacher, or any other white collar profession is. All of these have their specific stressors, all of these professions have loads of articles about how people are leaving these professions due to how hard they are. All of these jobs tend to lead to them consuming…

As someone who crossed over from medicine, I can attest that software engineers have it very very good. Appreciate what you have.

I accept everyone's personal experiences with bad management, unreasonable timelines, and uninspiring projects, but those things are everywhere. Now add in patients and their families having the worst days of their lives in your presence day after day, high-pressure decision making, not getting even the chance to sit or go to the bathroom for nearly a whole shift. To top it off, if you have an "off day", that can earn you a lengthy investigation +/- a court case.

While it may sound insensitive, software engineering is nowhere near as complex or stressful as many (but not all) medical roles. It is both mentally and physically less taxing.

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In addition as a leader your best use is often to be interrupted with questions from junior engineers. I kinda disagree w/ this. I get better results from helping people understand this: https://www.techtello.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/decisio... And then making sure that they're taking action when they should take action and getting help when they should be getting help. This means they are wrong sometimes but…

Kindof, but a lot of time has been wasted figuring out something that someone else already has done.

Better to figure things out on your own than learn that you can always interrupt someone else when you get a little stuck.

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#239

I'm not terribly convinced that software engineering is harder on someone mental health than being a doctor, lawyer, sales, engineer, professional athlete, teacher, or any other white collar profession is. All of these have their specific stressors, all of these professions have loads of articles about how people are leaving these professions due to how hard they are. All of these jobs tend to lead to them consuming…

If anything Engineers would get the least pushback to taking a mental health day of those careers. Our skillset becomes so uniquely tied to the company we work at that replacing a veteran engineer would take more than a year minimum. The differences between operations at two hospitals is probably minuscule compared to two tech companies. It also feels like managers have received training in "burnout" so the few times…

> Our skillset becomes so uniquely tied to the company we work at that replacing a veteran engineer would take more than a year minimum. The differences between operations at two hospitals is probably minuscule compared to two tech companies.

Companies/managers have gotten alot smarter about this. The strategy is to hire enough and be managed to a degree such that the operation of any single system is never left leave to any single engineer.

So if your company is smart, yes you are replaceable.

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If anything Engineers would get the least pushback to taking a mental health day of those careers. Our skillset becomes so uniquely tied to the company we work at that replacing a veteran engineer would take more than a year minimum. The differences between operations at two hospitals is probably minuscule compared to two tech companies. It also feels like managers have received training in "burnout" so the few times…

> Our skillset becomes so uniquely tied to the company we work at that replacing a veteran engineer would take more than a year minimum. The differences between operations at two hospitals is probably minuscule compared to two tech companies. Companies/managers have gotten alot smarter about this. The strategy is to hire enough and be managed to a degree such that the operation of any single system is never left leav…

There's strategy and there's reality though. They got other people to "operate" the thing, but "operate as well" is sometimes a pipe dream, which erodes the meaning of "replaceable".
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