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Mental health in software engineering

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Re: Mental health in software engineering

#251

Post by p_l »

mjr00 wrote: post #215
hayst4ck wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doctor, lawyer, and athlete are "jock" professions, while software engineering is very much a "nerd" profession. These words represent status and general level of attractiveness and therefore access to attention and sex. Doctors, lawyers, teachers, and professional athletes all experience social reward and/or social contexts to their work. Software engineering is interfacing with an unthinking, unfeeling machine for…

> Doctor, lawyer, and athlete are "jock" professions, while software engineering is very much a "nerd" profession. These words represent status and general level of attractiveness and therefore access to attention and sex. This is just your perspective and, IMO, it's pretty warped. Software engineering is not a low-status position, even compared to doctors and lawyers. You aren't lacking in status or not having sex b…

> This is just your perspective and, IMO, it's pretty warped. Software engineering is not a low-status position, even compared to doctors and lawyers. You aren't lacking in status or not having sex because you're a software engineer getting paid $200k/year instead of a doctor paid $200k/year.

I find that it definitely points to a time period when someone entered maybe not workforce, but the "IT world" let's say.

There was a time when programming in many places had definitely "unsexy" vibe among general population, with a lot of, well, painful "jokes", and all of that definitely set a "theme".

fast forward a decade or so to 2010 and suddenly IT is no longer that place where only losers go.

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#253

Post by david-gpu »

Zenzero wrote: post #237
chollida1 wrote: post #177

I'm not terribly convinced that software engineering is harder on someone mental health than being a doctor, lawyer, sales, engineer, professional athlete, teacher, or any other white collar profession is. All of these have their specific stressors, all of these professions have loads of articles about how people are leaving these professions due to how hard they are. All of these jobs tend to lead to them consuming…

As someone who crossed over from medicine, I can attest that software engineers have it very very good. Appreciate what you have. I accept everyone's personal experiences with bad management, unreasonable timelines, and uninspiring projects, but those things are everywhere. Now add in patients and their families having the worst days of their lives in your presence day after day, high-pressure decision making, not ge…

> While it may sound insensitive, software engineering is nowhere near as complex or stressful as many (but not all) medical roles. It is both mentally and physically less taxing

As much as I respect your personal experience, I think you make a mistake in assuming that it is universal. Further, you are also making the mistake of invalidating other people's individual experiences based on your perception of what the average worker does.

In other words, it is trivially easy to find software engineers who are burnt out to a much nicer crisp than the average doctor, and your dismissal of their suffering won't change a thing for them.

This isn't a contest to see which profession is most toxic to its workers. Our aim should be to find ways to prevent and mitigate these situations.

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#254

Post by Joel_Mckay »

Most firms screen for people that will not challenge their existing process. Whether it is "Culture fit" discrimination, neurodivergent specialists being exploited for not being ambitious in traditional ways, and or outright cons ripping off junior staff with insane contracts.

White Knight Syndrome is very real... The trick is knowing you have a problem.

Best of luck out there, =)

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#255

Post by coffeemug »

oooyay wrote: post #250
sandworm101 wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> >You cannot take a sick day by telling your team, “I have mental issues and need a day off.” I'm in an environment (military) were we actively work to prevent this. I have lots of kids (18-20yo) with mental health issues that are not helped by being allowed to take time off so casually. Our mental health experts want to keep people working because having them sit at home drinking/gaming does nothing. I have seen ki…

> I'm in an environment (military) were we actively work to prevent this. Are we talking US military here? I think I recognize the pattern you're talking about when you say: > I have lots of kids (18-20yo) with mental health issues that are not helped by being allowed to take time off so casually. Our mental health experts want to keep people working because having them sit at home drinking/gaming does nothing. I hav…

People use all kinds of colloquial models for mental health that may or may not have a relationship with reality. It is not obvious to me that there is such a thing as "underlying problems" that you mask by doing something else. Maybe, maybe not-- mental health is complicated and you have to prove this stuff. An alternative model is that people get depressed when they do nothing at home, and get better when they're surrounded by other people and have tasks to complete. I don't know what's actually right, but I'm always very skeptical when people approach these things with certitude.

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#256

Post by digging »

neilv wrote: post #204
surfingdino wrote: post #27

I used to be in (moderate) awe of young college drop-out CEOs. Then I worked for a couple of them. Now I refuse to work for startups that have 20-somethings at the top, because they really do not know how to manage or lead. They are motivated by fear of failure and having accomplished nothing so far they treat others like garbage. Avoid.

I suspect that there's no good reason that a 25 year-old can't be a great startup CEO. I think one key tricky part is that -- even if the 25yo starts with being all-around smart, and unusually aware&humble, yet nevertheless tackling something big -- is that it's very hard to know when they should listen to team/advisors (and which), vs. when they should do a contrary thing that they think is the smart thing. Maybe th…

> I suspect that there's no good reason that a 25 year-old can't be a great startup CEO.

There's exactly one: Learning takes time.

The smartest, kindest, most level-headed 25 y/o is not going to be as good a leader as their 35 y/o self, assuming they continue to build on their leadership skills.

Now we could say, well, maybe those 25 year-old CEOs overwhelmingly exhibit degraded leadership skills by the time they're 35. That's a statistic that's possible. But I think it would point toward some seriously prevalent burnout, not an inherent benefit of being 25. It may be easier to be positive at 25, but I don't think the ceiling for positivity is higher at 25 than at 35.

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#257

Post by financltravsty »

chrisweekly wrote: post #186
sh_hike wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

+1 I spent most of my childhood and teenage years feeling depressed due to traumatic experiences. I failed at mostly everything until I started programming. I took some mushrooms last year that helped me stop this constant cycle of repeating thoughts.

It seems like there's an increasing degree of awareness (in some parts of the US) that psilocybin mushrooms can be transformative for treating PTSD and/or depression. I'm curious if you live in a US state, and what your experience was like....

Psychedelics force you to break out of mental loops, and give you a new way to look at things (one that is already possible and intrinsic to you, but locked away by bad experiences) -- meaning a new, better way to live and experience life is possible.

As someone who has used a lot of psychedelics, it is transformative, once you realize everything is literally all in your head. That no matter the pain and suffering you're going through, life can be beautiful, and lovely, and enjoyable. Psychedelics can even show you the things, issues, and parts of you that you've been running away from.

But then the onus is on you. You have three options: go back to your normal life, and continue going through the same cycle of suffering (uncommon); continue (ab)using psychedelics to reach the same state (common); or take what you've learned and start making changes to yourself and your life, so you don't have to use them again (rare).

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#258

Post by pylua »

It’s challenging for people because you are often put in positions you can’t control the outcome of.

All you can do is your best, and if you fail, there is little safety net to help you. At least in the U.S. major items are tied to your job.

You can also be put in situations where people want you to sacrifice like you have equity in the company, but at the same time treat you like you are replaceable.

There is also a lot of people that are willing to over promise and blame you when things fail. At the end of the day it is the company over everyone.

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#259

Post by XorNot »

shrimp_emoji wrote: post #240
SJC_Hacker wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Our skillset becomes so uniquely tied to the company we work at that replacing a veteran engineer would take more than a year minimum. The differences between operations at two hospitals is probably minuscule compared to two tech companies. Companies/managers have gotten alot smarter about this. The strategy is to hire enough and be managed to a degree such that the operation of any single system is never left leav…

There's strategy and there's reality though. They got other people to "operate" the thing, but "operate as well" is sometimes a pipe dream, which erodes the meaning of "replaceable".

I mean keep in mind, stupid companies also exist (I'd argue they're the norm actually - you can have a company with nothing but smart people, but it's a Chinese room - the company itself can be an idiot). That's the problem with stupidity in general: it doesn't know it's stupid.

It's a corollary of "the market can remain irrational longer then you can remain solvent".

Re: Mental health in software engineering

#260

Post by cedws »

calderwoodra wrote: post #219

My wife is a dentist in the bay area - she can tell which patients work in tech based on how ground down their teeth are.

I've got a story about that. All of the tops of my teeths are worn down to the enamel and have been since a young age. My jaw (TMJ joint) on one side has permanent damage resulting in a constant clicking when I eat. I visited a dentist to get botox injected into my masseter muscles to force them to relax and reduce wear on my teeth. He told me they were the most powerful masseters he'd ever seen. Developed as a result of unconscious clenching from stress. Even a high dose of botox had a mild effect on them, and the effect is temporary.

Not sure I buy it, but indeed the dentist was telling me clenching is common in particular types of work like software engineering because of something to do with brain waves.

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