Flowers for Algernon (1965) [pdf] • Hacker News Board

Re: Flowers for Algernon (1965) [pdf]

#261

Post by icedchai » Tue, Mar 12, 2024, 1:22 PM UTC

hirvi74 wrote: post #231

yurishimo wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I was a "gifted" kid too. Turning 30 this year. I was in advanced classes from around 4th or 5th grade when they started separating us (suburban Texas) and then went to a special high school where I graduated with an associates degree and my high school diploma. Not trying to brag, just to relate and say I've been there. I wouldn't say I was a disappointment, but I certainly didn't go as far a…

One of the major issues is that IQ has basically no cardinality to my understanding. We can all agree that 105 score is "smarter" than a 100, but we cannot discern to what degree. I've read some conjectures that IQ is quite accurate below average, but seems to fall apart rather quickly the further one starts looking at scores above 100. But who knows? I'm just some random dude with Internet access.

There are likely diminishing returns, depending on what you do in life, career, etc. Even the mythical 10x engineer probably doesn't need a 160 IQ. ;)

Re: Flowers for Algernon (1965) [pdf]

#262

Post by octopusRex » Tue, Mar 12, 2024, 1:22 PM UTC

shrimp_emoji wrote: post #216

mrmuagi wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought it was well understood that your mental/physical potential peak when you are young and degrade thereafter? E.G. comparing 26 year old self to 86 year old self. But a saving grace is the degradation can be combated with exercise both mental/physical. I am not sure how much of aging is understood, so I hesitate to mention stuff like DNA damage.

I think that's a total misconception. I think the myth that "the brain stops developing at 25" was an apocryphal conclusion from a study where they simply stopped measuring past 25 and that either the same study or other studies found many brain faculties don't plateau, ever, even in advanced age. I also heard that it's highly variable from person to person how the brain develops, like some 8-year-olds had faster dev…

Years ago we were taught that the brain could not grow. You had what you were born with and after your twenties it degraded.

Now of course we are aware that the brain has plasticity. It can rewire itself, grow, learn.

Re: Flowers for Algernon (1965) [pdf]

#263

Post by eszed » Tue, Mar 12, 2024, 1:59 PM UTC

the_af wrote: post #160

fairity wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Too many of us are attached to our intelligence. I love this story bc it's a reminder that we should value personal excellence over intelligence. By personal excellence I mean making the most of the intelligence you’re given. The arc of intelligence in Flowers of Algernon is the same arc we’ll all experience over our lifetime. With old age, we all lose our mental faculties. If we value intelligence, in and of itself,…

> Too many of us are attached to our intelligence I think Alzheimer's is scary because it's not just about intelligence. If it was just that you become dumb(er), I wouldn't mind it that much. I must be an exception, but beyond a certain threshold (I wouldn't want to be drooling idiot) I'm not that attached to my intelligence. I'm painfully aware that I'm average and that I had the luck of having an education and a st…

I can corroborate your insight from personal experience. I had a stroke a few years back and, while I was recovering, my intelligence was drastically reduced. I always derived a great deal of my identity and self-worth from being "smart", and would have predicted that operating at maybe 25% capacity would be devastating. In fact, it wasn't. I was aware (certainly!) that I was operating at a deficit, but I still felt like myself. I was able to love and feel loved, experience joy, and humour, and enjoy good food, and watch movies and sports on TV. About all I couldn't do was read (well, I could read, but I couldn't follow complex prose), which sucked, but nearly all of what made me me, and made life worth living, was unaffected. Intelligence is overrated.

Your description of dementia, however, is only true from the outside. Prior to that stage, I passed through a period of about a week where I was completely absent. I was able to behave coherently for short periods of time, but I wasn't creating any memories. It's a blank. (I have text threads saved with friends where I tell them what's happened and where I was, carry on for a bit, and then loop back to the beginning.) If identity is a pattern both stable and self-modifying over time - which, based on this experience, I believe it to be - then I had ceased exist.

I've made an agreement with my wife that, should I become demented in old age, she should feel no moral compulsion towards any course of action. She's welcome to keep whatever is left of me around so long as it gives her joy, but "I" will no longer be present, and whatever happens to whatever is left no longer matters. As far as I'm concerned she should warehouse, or (better, though unfortunately not legal where we live) euthanase my body, and get on with doing something useful with her time.

Re: Flowers for Algernon (1965) [pdf]

#264

Post by user_7832 » Tue, Mar 12, 2024, 5:54 PM UTC

Ferret7446 wrote: post #237

user_7832 wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're asking what's worse, body dying with a a good mind, or mind dying eg in dementia but good body, the answer is almost 100% the latter being worse. I know someone who had Alzheimer's. Was in excellent physical shape, had biomarkers of someone 20 years younger. Would go for daily walks for decades, consistently did yoga etc. The issue, with late stage Alzheimer's (and possibly dementia in general), is that the…

Worse for whom? The latter seems a lot less distressing for the subject (assuming you have the "blissful ignorance" dementia and not "constant fear" dementia"), the former sounds like a novel form of torture. There's a reason we sedate people undergoing most medical operations.

Worse for both, the patient & the loved ones. Even with "blissful ignorance" dementia (in my limited experience) people can very quickly get agitated. Yes, they may calm down quickly too, but it's not always calm.

The problem with dementia isn't just at the "old person chilling in room" state, as I mentioned if it progresses far enough (which is nearly guaranteed if they live long enough) basic bodily functions become difficult. A parallel case of eg paralyzed people (both of whom are unable to swallow properly for different reasons) shows how frequently they can die from something as simple as choking on their own saliva.

> There's a reason we sedate people undergoing most medical operations.

I'm not sure what you mean by this, if you're referring to people waking up but being unable to move being potentially torturous I agree.

Re: Flowers for Algernon (1965) [pdf]

#265

Post by klibertp » Tue, Mar 12, 2024, 7:09 PM UTC

chaostheory wrote: post #222

klibertp wrote: post #93

My biggest fear. The nightmares I had for years after reading. They returned, years later, when observing Alzheimer's from up close, in family members. No way out, no cure. Memory, reasoning capabilities, character, everything that makes you yourself decline, disappear; you're still breathing, but you're more dead day after day. And then, when you stop being aware of all that... does it make it better? or worse? I do…

There are preventative measures. The easiest and cheapest one is cardio exercise. I can’t run anymore, but I find the Quest VR headset to be a great way to do cardio workouts since you’re just playing video games. Much easier to do and less excuses than having to go to the gym.

Thank you. I felt for years that this is the way to go: I hate moving without purpose, and "being fit" is too abstract a goal for me to keep at it. But I don't mind at all moving to accomplish something, and honestly, getting a high-score in a game is as good a "something" as anything. I read a few opinions like yours, unfortunately, most were drowned in "VR doomerism" (doesn't work, too big, too heavy, motion sickness, low res, etc. etc.) - but I'm now at the point where it's becoming more and more apparent that I have to do something. You just gave me the final nudge and I firmly decided to try VR for cardio. Thanks :)

Re: Flowers for Algernon (1965) [pdf]

#266

Post by hirvi74 » Tue, Mar 12, 2024, 8:20 PM UTC

api wrote: post #259

hirvi74 wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone with ADHD, I have had this discussion with doctors numerous times. Not a single one of them have ever read F4A, but many were aware of the plot at least. I still warn people new to ADHD about the sinister side(s) of medication. One of the issues I learned real quick during the shortage of the past few years is that what ever is "given" can be "taken." I have a decent enough job that provides me a stable li…

I guess all of humanity is in this condition with regard to modern technology. One solar flare and we re-learn what it’s like to dig in the mud in the cold covered in parasites and then die of plague. Life is layers and layers of fragile.

I agree, and I think that is partly my problem to some degree -- a problem that stems from luxury.

Modern technology is kind of the root of most of my issues. I could survive like most people because the expectation of sitting in an office for 8+ hours a day would vanish. My deficits might be reduced, nonexistent, and/or potentially beneficial. I guess in some sense, I would imagine I might feel more "capable" in the world of a muddy fight for our survival. Then again, I could just die in childhood from a deep cut.

Of course, modern life is too good to give up. Despite its comforts, it's clear modern life benefits some more than others (or any lifestyle for that matter).

Thanks for reminding me to be thankful for what I do have. :)

Re: Flowers for Algernon (1965) [pdf]

#267

Post by the_af » Wed, Mar 13, 2024, 2:22 AM UTC

eszed wrote: post #263

the_af wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Too many of us are attached to our intelligence I think Alzheimer's is scary because it's not just about intelligence. If it was just that you become dumb(er), I wouldn't mind it that much. I must be an exception, but beyond a certain threshold (I wouldn't want to be drooling idiot) I'm not that attached to my intelligence. I'm painfully aware that I'm average and that I had the luck of having an education and a st…

I can corroborate your insight from personal experience. I had a stroke a few years back and, while I was recovering, my intelligence was drastically reduced. I always derived a great deal of my identity and self-worth from being "smart", and would have predicted that operating at maybe 25% capacity would be devastating. In fact, it wasn't. I was aware (certainly!) that I was operating at a deficit, but I still felt…

Thanks for sharing your experience. I hope you fully recovered.

Re: Flowers for Algernon (1965) [pdf]

#268

Post by spombg » Wed, Mar 13, 2024, 4:23 AM UTC

jjice wrote: post #34

This story is part of the reason I'd never want to know about where I land intelligence wise compared to other people. No matter the outcome, I don't think it could be good. I it's below average, I'll feel limited. If it's above average, I'll have added pressure of self expectations and maybe arrogance. That's not the case for everyone, but I'm happy where I am currently. Back to the story - the use of grammar and sp…

The only IQ score I’d be comfortable knowing for myself is it it’s 100. Perfectly average straight down the middle. I want to feel like my fate isn’t enhanced or hindered by my intelligence

Re: Flowers for Algernon (1965) [pdf]

#269

Post by eszed » Wed, Mar 13, 2024, 6:54 AM UTC

the_af wrote: post #267

eszed wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can corroborate your insight from personal experience. I had a stroke a few years back and, while I was recovering, my intelligence was drastically reduced. I always derived a great deal of my identity and self-worth from being "smart", and would have predicted that operating at maybe 25% capacity would be devastating. In fact, it wasn't. I was aware (certainly!) that I was operating at a deficit, but I still felt…

Thanks for sharing your experience. I hope you fully recovered.

Thanks for the kind wishes. I have some residual neuropathy in my right hand, and I have to take anti-seizure medication every day or my brain tries to kill me. Either the medication or the brain injury has reduced my brain-power and ability to articulate my thoughts by about 10%. There are some things that were easy before that aren't possible now, but all in all I've had an amazing result. The experience has entirely removed my fear of death, so it may even have have been a net positive. I can't complain!

Re: Flowers for Algernon (1965) [pdf]

#270

Post by gmadsen » Fri, Mar 15, 2024, 4:53 PM UTC

archagon wrote: post #192

gmadsen wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is that possible to not know? Have you never worked on a team?

Whenever I work with someone more insightful and effective than me, I'm compelled to do better and get closer to their level. I've never had the thought that they must be more intrinsically intelligent.

Maybe try to seek out that experience then? I think its a little dangerous to go through life not understanding that there are levels of intrinsic intelligence. It should be fairly obvious. And it applies to everyone, you can read quotes of old physics nobel laureates that speak about Von Neumann as if he was not a human.

The take away should be that, yes some people are intrinsically smarter, but that is a crappy system to base self worth off of, because then only one person in the world gets to be happy.