Live data from Hacker News

Flowers for Algernon (1965) [pdf]

sdfo.org

151–160 of 272 posts

Re: Flowers for Algernon (1965) [pdf]

#151
post #2

I remember reading the story for the first time and my feelings of pity and horror when the protagonist's decline began. With lifespans increasing, many of us will have Charlie's experience.

Indeed. I wish I could have been born in a world where I could use my skills for survival in the forests and die younger but have a more fulfilling life. Modern technological society is a disappointment, even if I am more comfortable.

Do you do any outdoors activities? One thing I’ve learned over the years, and was somewhat surprised by, is that I find type-II outdoor fun more fulfilling than my hobbies or work. For me, it’s a mix of 1) nature is awesome and indifferently brutal af, 2) having/improvising/gaining knowledge and skills to handle situations you haven’t before, and 3) pushing yourself physically beyond some limit. I don’t like exercising and went far too many years not doing so, but when I have a trip on the calendar I tend to get out of my chair to stretch and strengthen regularly. If anything, using my skills for survival in the forests (and deserts, snow, etc) will help me reach death later and with a better quality of life. Otherwise, I joke with my wife that if I lose my faculties, she can leave me at the edge of the Grand Canyon in my wheelchair and maybe I’ll just simply forget to set the brake.

Re: Flowers for Algernon (1965) [pdf]

#152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have an assisted-suicide packt with my wife, that is probably the easiest solution.

For sure, if you can trust your partner to assist you with this, and if you can guarantee that your partner will not face legal consequences, this would be a great option. Dementia poses a legal wrinkle, in that in many jurisdictions, assisted suicide requires consent at the time of the procedure. In many states in the US, especially in the south, assisted suicide is a boogeyman that runs against prevalent religious…

I'm fairly certain in the US you cannot legally consent to being killed.

Re: Flowers for Algernon (1965) [pdf]

#153
I haven't read this, but I'm a fan of "But Never a Key," a song whose lyrics reference the story:

https://dirtpoorrobins.bandcamp.com/track/but-never-a-key-de...

https://open.spotify.com/track/5NXt7fGhxFGfU6h1m9x06A

https://youtu.be/IFR06LNqJVs

The album it's on (Deadhorse, by Dirt Poor Robins) is also excellent if you like apocalyptic cinematic rock with a sci-fi radio drama vibe.

Re: Flowers for Algernon (1965) [pdf]

#155
post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For sure, if you can trust your partner to assist you with this, and if you can guarantee that your partner will not face legal consequences, this would be a great option. Dementia poses a legal wrinkle, in that in many jurisdictions, assisted suicide requires consent at the time of the procedure. In many states in the US, especially in the south, assisted suicide is a boogeyman that runs against prevalent religious…

I'm fairly certain in the US you cannot legally consent to being killed.

Wikipedia has a map - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assisted_suicide_in_the_United...

Re: Flowers for Algernon (1965) [pdf]

#156

My biggest fear. The nightmares I had for years after reading. They returned, years later, when observing Alzheimer's from up close, in family members. No way out, no cure. Memory, reasoning capabilities, character, everything that makes you yourself decline, disappear; you're still breathing, but you're more dead day after day. And then, when you stop being aware of all that... does it make it better? or worse? I do…

Would you prefer to suffer through something like cancer, fully aware of your decline and unable to do anything but with the will to do so? Or just be completely unaware of what is going on but not necessarily in poor health? Dementia is certainly terrible in a unique and disturbing way for the afflicted and people that care about them, but Im not so sure some of the more understandable alternatives would be preferab…

Both scenarios scare me terribly. I wish I'll never have to find out which is worse, not for me or for any of my loved ones, but of course this is very unlikely...

Re: Flowers for Algernon (1965) [pdf]

#157
post #43

Tons of people scared of mental and other forms of decline here. Hey, I got news! It's 2024. We understand a fair deal more of how our biochemistry works. We have more computing power than ever, and it's going to be increasing thanks to the crazy amounts of computing power our latest AIs need. That means that we can understand even more of how our biochemistry works by doing exactly what each drug company is doing: r…

There are a lot of things that can already be done - for me I have ADHD related dopamine dysregulation resulting in brain fog so I take slow acting dopamine reuptake inhibitors in the form of low dose modafinil. I also take strict care of my diet, sleep and other medications and I feel as sharp as ever. And since I'm already on top of it I do hope that I can maintain this into old age. I have a friend and former work colleague in his early 50s that is clearly suffering from a similar worsening ADHD brain fog but I've been unable to convince him to do anything about it. Every time I try he acts as if it's the first time I'm mentioning it. He knows he has memory issues but considers it more of a problem for other people since he is still able to cope within his daily routines. He is very anti-medication and thinks there is nothing really wrong with him. I think some medications and lifestyle changes could clear up his brain fog and bring him back to full mental capacity. I don't think he is past the point of no-return physically but there is no way for me to convince him to try meds, so in effect he's past the point of no-return mentally. It's like watching a slow motion train wreck that is still preventable but all my attempts at preventing it have thus far been ineffectual and likely always will be.

Re: Flowers for Algernon (1965) [pdf]

#158
post #94
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone thinks they are familiar with the Dunning Kruger effect. Probably 95% of people get it wrong. [I am not a psychologist, but here is my summary of how I think the real effect works... Let's say we have a skill we can be assessed on a scale of 1-10. 1 is worst, 10 is best. The popular perception of the Dunning Kruger effect is that people lower on the scale, say 2 or 3, rate themselves highly - say 7 or 8. And…

You can't call out a percentage of people you plucked from thin air on not understanding something, then qualify your understanding as your own interpretation. Are you aware that your whole post just said "Nobody understands the version of this thing in my head?" This us a studied thing. You need sources and conclusions drawn from them, not your own speculation (not that it was horribly off the mark, but come on, man…

I await your peer-reviewed study on the Journal of Redditometrics and Hacker Newsodynamics on the relative frequency of people misusing the Dunning Kruger effect. In the meantime, I think I'll stick with my own perception of people misusing the result routinely to mean that stupid people think they're geniuses, because that's all I ever see myself.

Re: Flowers for Algernon (1965) [pdf]

#159
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Frankly, everyone's familiar with the Dunning-Kruger effect, but the lack of intelligence in this story reminds me of Roog by Philip K. Dick. It's about a dog's paranoia regarding the local garbage men. He tries to warn his "guardian," but all he can say is: Roog.

of course, it is not actually paranoia - the garbage men really are evil non-human beings!

Phil Dick never outright states that the dog in "Roog" is wrong. That's the most likely interpretation, but given this is a PKD story, not the only one!

Re: Flowers for Algernon (1965) [pdf]

#160

My biggest fear. The nightmares I had for years after reading. They returned, years later, when observing Alzheimer's from up close, in family members. No way out, no cure. Memory, reasoning capabilities, character, everything that makes you yourself decline, disappear; you're still breathing, but you're more dead day after day. And then, when you stop being aware of all that... does it make it better? or worse? I do…

Too many of us are attached to our intelligence. I love this story bc it's a reminder that we should value personal excellence over intelligence. By personal excellence I mean making the most of the intelligence you’re given. The arc of intelligence in Flowers of Algernon is the same arc we’ll all experience over our lifetime. With old age, we all lose our mental faculties. If we value intelligence, in and of itself,…

> Too many of us are attached to our intelligence

I think Alzheimer's is scary because it's not just about intelligence. If it was just that you become dumb(er), I wouldn't mind it that much. I must be an exception, but beyond a certain threshold (I wouldn't want to be drooling idiot) I'm not that attached to my intelligence. I'm painfully aware that I'm average and that I had the luck of having an education and a stable home that other, more intelligent but less fortunate people than me, didn't.

I think Alzheimer's is scary because your whole personality goes. Cognitive functions. Memory. You stop being independent. You cannot do the simplest things by yourself. Things become scary and you're not sure why. You are alone, surrounded by strangers.

If there was a progressive illness where you got less intelligent, but still able to function and tell who your loved ones are, remember things, and at least understand where you are and your new place in the world, to me it wouldn't be half as scary as Alzheimer's.

Post reply on HN