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Flowers for Algernon (1965) [pdf]

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Re: Flowers for Algernon (1965) [pdf]

#141

Post by bombcar »

vouaobrasil wrote: post #71
qgin wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could get pretty close if you wanted to

Not really. There are very few wild areas left, especially in warmer areas. Much of the natural resources of these areas are contaminated such as water. Natural areas are often government-managed or privately owned. Gone are the days where you could wander off into the wild and just live as some of the indigineous tribes used to.

You could live as long as you wanted on BLM land, as long as you kept moving.

Of course, you'd probably die pretty quickly, but nobody would stop you.

The chance of living on a proverbial paradisal desert island isn't available anymore; those places are desirable!

Re: Flowers for Algernon (1965) [pdf]

#142

Post by nanolith »

irrational wrote: post #111
nanolith wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm of the belief that in such a situation, a pre-cognitive decline "living will" or dead man switch is appropriate. If I were diagnosed with dementia, I'd build automation to ensure that I'd appear to die a natural death when I enter the steep slope of cognitive decline. It's as easy as tying the results of frequent cognitive tests into a moving average that triggers my medication dispenser to start mixing in a toxi…

How would you do it if you didn't take any medication? The most medication I've ever needed to take is an aspirin once or twice a year. I'm trying to think what other method I could use in place of substituting mediation.

Well, I would strongly advocate that such a system be used only after a diagnosis, at which point, you would be placed on medications to slow the progression. At that point, this would be seen as a rather innocuous thing by family members, since it's a machine meant to help you to remember to take medication that you need to help with your dementia.

I have considered other machines -- again, as a theoretical exercise -- but ultimately, my decision process was that it had to maintain the plausible deniability to family members that I just died of natural causes. Allowing family to believe that I opted out because I felt that I was a burden would certainly lead to trauma beyond death from natural causes or an accident.

I'm a strong believer in having the power of euthanasia. Part of the reason why dementia frightens me is because it would strip me of this agency. I currently suffer from heart failure, and dementia is a comorbidity in the later stages. Being able to choose a dignified end, hopefully in 30-40 years, is important to me.

Re: Flowers for Algernon (1965) [pdf]

#143

Post by extragood »

_yb2s wrote: post #140
nanolith wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm of the belief that in such a situation, a pre-cognitive decline "living will" or dead man switch is appropriate. If I were diagnosed with dementia, I'd build automation to ensure that I'd appear to die a natural death when I enter the steep slope of cognitive decline. It's as easy as tying the results of frequent cognitive tests into a moving average that triggers my medication dispenser to start mixing in a toxi…

Having ADHD I've often wondered how I could even do a deadman switch. I'd eventually forget to renew it when I was otherwise perfectly fine.

There was something I was supposed to do today.. huh. Must not have been important.

>

oh no

Re: Flowers for Algernon (1965) [pdf]

#144

Post by nanolith »

_yb2s wrote: post #140
nanolith wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm of the belief that in such a situation, a pre-cognitive decline "living will" or dead man switch is appropriate. If I were diagnosed with dementia, I'd build automation to ensure that I'd appear to die a natural death when I enter the steep slope of cognitive decline. It's as easy as tying the results of frequent cognitive tests into a moving average that triggers my medication dispenser to start mixing in a toxi…

Having ADHD I've often wondered how I could even do a deadman switch. I'd eventually forget to renew it when I was otherwise perfectly fine.

It really has to be part of the routine, and there needs to be automated nagging in place to ensure that it goes off due to programmed conditions, and not due to neglect.

I think this is especially important in cases of dementia. Daily routines will become one of the last things to go, as long as there is good nagware in place to keep you in line.

I use nagware to remind me to take my medication, do my Duolingo practice, do my nightly checkins to GitHub, feed the various critters that don't or won't remind me themselves, and do my various work rituals. Weekly, monthly, and annual reminders (doctor appointments and birthdays) are also important.

Re: Flowers for Algernon (1965) [pdf]

#145

Post by javajosh »

trylfthsk wrote: post #61
keiferski wrote: post #47

It's interesting to compare this story to the movie Limitless , which has a fairly similar premise, but ends on a positive note. Algernon seems to have more influence, probably because of it is fundamentally a kind of morality tale, but I actually kind of prefer Limitless, [0] as limited as its plot is. There is something motivational about it, which is probably why there are so many YouTube productivity videos with…

Can also recommend the Ted Chiang story Understand [1], which adds in a dash of The Most Dangerous Game . [1] https://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/title.cgi?40835

I love Ted Chiang and that story is a banger. The movies like Limitless, Lucy or Phenomenon don't really take the concept to its conclusions. Limitless posits day trading, or politics, as the highest goal. Lucy goes post human in a silly, fantasy way. Phenomenon was pretty cool except for the telekinesis. But Understand sort of hits all the bases and I really like the thesis that there is an irreducible, existential struggle between Utilitarianism and Aesthetics. And of course, the realization that the protag is actually the bad guy. Not a huge fan of the idea of "programming" another person with engrams and random stuff in the environment, to like, die, but it's more plausible than telekinesis!

He also wrote the best, IMHO, time-travel story ever written: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Merchant_and_the_Alchemist.... A gorgeous little tale.

Re: Flowers for Algernon (1965) [pdf]

#146

Post by yurishimo »

icedchai wrote: post #88
yurishimo wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, there is a difference between an informed estimate and knowing for sure. Maybe that person you always work with is not the brightest programmer, but maybe they don't care about it as much as you. People can demonstrate intelligence is many different ways. Plus, if they doesn't want to know, why does it matter? It's their life to live in ignorance. For this specific topic, I don't see any harm in leaving your…

As an 1980's "gifted" kid, believe me, they made sure you knew. IQ tests in 3rd grade, "enrichment" classes 3x a week, taking the SAT in 7th grade for some special program. Later in life, most of these gifted kids were total disappointments. I know I am.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I was a "gifted" kid too. Turning 30 this year. I was in advanced classes from around 4th or 5th grade when they started separating us (suburban Texas) and then went to a special high school where I graduated with an associates degree and my high school diploma. Not trying to brag, just to relate and say I've been there.

I wouldn't say I was a disappointment, but I certainly didn't go as far as even the "smart" kids from my own graduating class. I know many of them are "real" engineers working for companies we all know and doing important work in hardware, architecture, civil projects, and aerospace. I feel dumb compared to them.

At the same time, I have a successful career in software, no debt, happily married for almost 10 years, moved to a different continent, etc etc. Sure, am I "smarter" than the average Joe? I guess, but knowing that information doesn't change anything about my life. If I took a real IQ test, I think I would also feel some sort of disappointment or pressure to live up to expectations or better myself in some way.

Idk; I guess that's why I made my original comment. The utility of knowing your IQ is "above average" is so useless to me, I'm not sure why anyone would want to knowingly saddle themselves with that knowledge. Be free, be happy, and be yourself.

Re: Flowers for Algernon (1965) [pdf]

#147

Post by niemandhier »

nanolith wrote: post #107
klibertp wrote: post #93

My biggest fear. The nightmares I had for years after reading. They returned, years later, when observing Alzheimer's from up close, in family members. No way out, no cure. Memory, reasoning capabilities, character, everything that makes you yourself decline, disappear; you're still breathing, but you're more dead day after day. And then, when you stop being aware of all that... does it make it better? or worse? I do…

I'm of the belief that in such a situation, a pre-cognitive decline "living will" or dead man switch is appropriate. If I were diagnosed with dementia, I'd build automation to ensure that I'd appear to die a natural death when I enter the steep slope of cognitive decline. It's as easy as tying the results of frequent cognitive tests into a moving average that triggers my medication dispenser to start mixing in a toxi…

I have an assisted-suicide packt with my wife, that is probably the easiest solution.

Re: Flowers for Algernon (1965) [pdf]

#148

Post by ajmurmann »

abraxas wrote: post #65

This is the original short story. I recommend that people read the full book instead or at least read the book first to avoid spoilers. It's at least as good as the short story but expands on the ideas and the story line significantly.

Does the book add significant new ideas or is it just more explicit about the consequences? I generally love scifi for the ideas much more so than for story and am torn between the book and the short story.

Re: Flowers for Algernon (1965) [pdf]

#149

Post by fairity »

klibertp wrote: post #93

My biggest fear. The nightmares I had for years after reading. They returned, years later, when observing Alzheimer's from up close, in family members. No way out, no cure. Memory, reasoning capabilities, character, everything that makes you yourself decline, disappear; you're still breathing, but you're more dead day after day. And then, when you stop being aware of all that... does it make it better? or worse? I do…

Too many of us are attached to our intelligence. I love this story bc it's a reminder that we should value personal excellence over intelligence. By personal excellence I mean making the most of the intelligence you’re given.

The arc of intelligence in Flowers of Algernon is the same arc we’ll all experience over our lifetime. With old age, we all lose our mental faculties. If we value intelligence, in and of itself, that loss will be very painful. But, if we value making the most of our intelligence, we are resilient.

Applying this framework to Charlie, there’s much less to be sad about. He made the most of the intelligence he was gifted, and that’s what really matters.

Re: Flowers for Algernon (1965) [pdf]

#150

Post by nanolith »

niemandhier wrote: post #147
nanolith wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm of the belief that in such a situation, a pre-cognitive decline "living will" or dead man switch is appropriate. If I were diagnosed with dementia, I'd build automation to ensure that I'd appear to die a natural death when I enter the steep slope of cognitive decline. It's as easy as tying the results of frequent cognitive tests into a moving average that triggers my medication dispenser to start mixing in a toxi…

I have an assisted-suicide packt with my wife, that is probably the easiest solution.

For sure, if you can trust your partner to assist you with this, and if you can guarantee that your partner will not face legal consequences, this would be a great option.

Dementia poses a legal wrinkle, in that in many jurisdictions, assisted suicide requires consent at the time of the procedure. In many states in the US, especially in the south, assisted suicide is a boogeyman that runs against prevalent religious beliefs. In this case, someone with diminished capacity may be seen as unable to give consent, which could land the assistant in legal trouble.

This is why I like the idea of automation that acts on objective measures, with fail safes in place. Likewise, if after "doing the deed", the system erases itself and the firmware on the pill dispenser is glitched out, then the whole thing can look like an accident. A letter can be sent ahead of time to the family attorney, only to be opened under suspicion of foul play, which can clear up any potential investigatory wrinkles if law enforcement gets involved.

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