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F-35 Program Achieves Full Rate Production

defense.gov

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Re: F-35 Program Achieves Full Rate Production

#51

Post by dylan604 »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #28
samstave wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EDIT: Sorry - The article was about it took 17 YEARS to work out all these bugs... So - it reminded me of the thought of the 737max bugs that boeing is plagued with right now... --- I'm really curious to know how much of all these billions we are sending out to all these wars will come back to this project? Also, in a general aviation sense, I think all planes should have a link to their service records. I think that…

> service records should be required to be made public We’re still talking about military aircraft?

Yeah, that came across to me as weird take as well. Like they have a point they really want to make, but just comes across very tone deaf to the actual conversation at hand (if not just missed/ignored).

I was reading service records as what conflicts it had been in, and what it's record was during those conflicts. It took a second that they were conflating this like it was a Boeing passenger plane type of thing. oy vey! There might have been a big whooshing sound as the point flew.

Re: F-35 Program Achieves Full Rate Production

#52

Post by Retric »

roenxi wrote: post #29
tragiclos wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems like victory through attrition. It might be the only modern fighter produced for export in the Western world.

I'm most interested in what the unit economics here are. Inefficiencies in Western manufacturing are seem like they could be significant since the big threat in the short term seems to be a WWI style blow up by UN security council countries. The US is basically broke and seems to be struggling industrially. It won't be able to ignore economics if it has to conduct a war against an industrial power.

It’s always amazing to consider what people think about the economy vs how it’s actually doing.

Japan has a Debt to GDP ratio of 255%, relatively few natural resources, and a rapidly aging population, yet it is still doing reasonably well. America by comparison is in a vastly better position economically.

Re: F-35 Program Achieves Full Rate Production

#53

Post by nine_k »

zx8080 wrote: post #44
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> service records should be required to be made public We’re still talking about military aircraft?

Tax money spent on it. Does it effectively make every every taxpayer citizen a shareholder? Shareholders deserve to know project spending and efficiency.

Was the money spent on the Sprint rocket interceptor spent well?

Re: F-35 Program Achieves Full Rate Production

#54

Post by ClumsyPilot »

leashless wrote: post #10

https://www.aspistrategist.org.au/jet-fighter-costs-a-comple... In 20 years they'll manufacture just one plane, and it'll cost a trillion dollars, if current trends continue to hold. Also it'll the weight of an aircraft carrier.

This

Much was made of the fact that, once modern western equipment arrives in UK, it will wipe the floor with soviet union relics that serve in the Russian army. Instead, it has hardly made a difference.

The difference in price, even of simple non-mobile artillery pieces, is huge. Because they are so expensive, we cannot field as much equipment, and we've been telling ourselves that our modern equipment is worth multiple unit of the other side. Now I am starting to think we've just been deluding ourselves, and in reality we are just outgunned and the military complex is a huge graft.

Re: F-35 Program Achieves Full Rate Production

#55

Post by nradov »

tragiclos wrote: post #14
bee_rider wrote: post #8

It is wild that they’ve turned this project around from the avatar of wasteful defense spending, to the jet that everybody wants.

Seems like victory through attrition. It might be the only modern fighter produced for export in the Western world.

Two different international coalitions are now trying to design 6th-generation fighters that will be available for export, but the earliest they could possibly be available is 2035. So, for at least another decade the F-35 will be the only survivable 5th-generation fighter available for purchase in US-aligned countries.

There are still a few other 4th-generation fighters in production, some with modernized systems, but at this point they're only suitable for a limited set of defensive or low-intensity missions. Russia and China supposedly also have operational 5th-generation fighters now but it's unclear whether those actually work, and they can't build enough to even supply their own forces let alone exports.

Re: F-35 Program Achieves Full Rate Production

#56

Post by harshreality »

actionfromafar wrote: post #19
tragiclos wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems like victory through attrition. It might be the only modern fighter produced for export in the Western world.

The price is starting to look right, too. I'm still shocked by this.

Cost per flight hour is still much higher than its slightly less capable competitors.

I don't know what the argument is for that. Maybe that sim training will be a larger percentage of training in the future, and therefore operating costs don't matter so much? Take whatever jet has the best capabilities, period?

I think what that misses is that maintenance of real aircraft will atrophy without constant pilot feedback. Of course mechanics can follow the maintenance guidelines, but so much of that, historically, is guided, modified, and improved by experience from wear and tear from actual use.

Re: F-35 Program Achieves Full Rate Production

#57

Post by ClumsyPilot »

ein0p wrote: post #48
pjscott wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US, and the allies to which it exports F-35s, are overwhelmingly a net force for peace in the world. There’s a reason why the phrase “Pax Americana” is so well-known. You can think of these as war machines, since they’re literally machines made for use in war — but you can also think of them as war prevention machines, causing would-be aggressors to think twice before, like, invading Singapore or some such unplea…

>> force for peace The entire Middle East begs to differ.

especially as Western made bombs fall on Gaza

On a more statistically relevant note, just note that US / Nato allies feature on like 1/3 of armed conflicts in the 21st century.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars:_2003%E2%80%93pre...

Re: F-35 Program Achieves Full Rate Production

#58

Post by dylan604 »

gerdesj wrote: post #20
loloquwowndueo wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey at least they expand the acronyms!

That is normal and the acronym comes second: Boaty McBoat Face (BMcBF) Now I can use BMcBF and you have all the information you need to work out what I'm on about. I'm pretty sure that "Usage and abusage" encourages that format. The only slightly controversial aspect of my example is M vs Mc. Mc is already an abbreviation, so should it be repeated intact? For me, Mc is complicated enough as a contraction and abbrevia…

> That is normal

sadly, as time goes by, this is becoming less of a norm. people just spit out acronyms because they are so used to, but fail to take a second that someone less familiar might actually be reading it. in previous discussions, this receives some support as "it's targeted a like minded readers" or "they're not professional writers" or "it's just a blog" blah blah.

for tweets, i'm surprised we still you vowels. for longer form posts, it would be nice to still be readable.

Re: F-35 Program Achieves Full Rate Production

#59

Post by roenxi »

Retric wrote: post #52
roenxi wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm most interested in what the unit economics here are. Inefficiencies in Western manufacturing are seem like they could be significant since the big threat in the short term seems to be a WWI style blow up by UN security council countries. The US is basically broke and seems to be struggling industrially. It won't be able to ignore economics if it has to conduct a war against an industrial power.

It’s always amazing to consider what people think about the economy vs how it’s actually doing. Japan has a Debt to GDP ratio of 255%, relatively few natural resources, and a rapidly aging population, yet it is still doing reasonably well. America by comparison is in a vastly better position economically.

Japan is also a net creditor [0]. One of the largest.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Net_international_investment_p...

Re: F-35 Program Achieves Full Rate Production

#60

Post by nradov »

zer00eyz wrote: post #21
bee_rider wrote: post #8

It is wild that they’ve turned this project around from the avatar of wasteful defense spending, to the jet that everybody wants.

>> jet that everybody wants. That was the f22. And we blocked international sales in favor of the f35. The death of the f22 should not be mourned, we will get 6th gen research to replace it. As for the everybody wants it bit, this is very true. Much to the ~~shargrin~~ chagrin of EU military industry. With one of our presidential candidates calling for us pulling out of nato, with us not backing Ukraine, I would expe…

Even without the export ban, there was no real international demand for the F-22. The cost was so high that none of our close allies could even remotely afford it, especially after the end of the Cold War and prior to the rise of China as an expansionist global power. Back when F-22 production was terminated in 2009, everyone was cutting (or at least not increasing) military spending. If Japan or Australia had really pushed to buy the F-22 it would have been possible to produce an export model with the more sensitive items stripped out. They didn't want it.
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