Men In Tech • Hacker News Board

Re: Men In Tech

#101

Post by Craiggybear » Sat, May 12, 2012, 4:15 PM UTC

I was trained to program (Assembly language) twenty five years ago -- by a woman. There were a lot of female software engineers/programmers then and no one even commented on it. My stepfather (an electronics and heavy power engineer) had a very stylish and beautiful lady colleague at Westinghouse and she was a senior engineering lead -- that was more than 35 years ago. I also know lots of male gay engineers and programmers and no one thinks this worthy of comment either.

No one paid attention to this female programmer thing until relatively recently, I've found. The past really is a different country.

Re: Men In Tech

#102

Post by orangecat » Sat, May 12, 2012, 4:15 PM UTC

ericabiz wrote: post #79

sasha-dv wrote: post #47

Just what women need! Another middle-aged white man fighting for the women's rights. It's condescending. It's just a step away from "A Gay Girl in Damascus".

Hi, I have no idea if you are a woman or a man, but as a woman in tech, I feel compelled to reply. I appreciated this story. Not so much the comments attached to it on HN, but the story itself. If it got some guys thinking about how they would feel if this happened: "You don't look like a programmer! When did you get into computers? That's kinda hot..." Which has happened to me so many times I've lost count...usually…

If it got some guys thinking about how they would feel if this happened:

"You don't look like a programmer! When did you get into computers? That's kinda hot..."

I'd have no problem with that at all, especially I found the woman attractive. As others have said, just flipping the genders in scenarios like that doesn't often work.

And is that really an awful way for guys to hit on you? They're going to do that anyway, and at least this way they're expressing interest in your interests, rather than just staring at your chest.

Re: Men In Tech

#103

Post by benmccann » Sat, May 12, 2012, 4:18 PM UTC

cwp wrote: post #32

lucisferre wrote: post #25

The comments here so far are mind bogglingly stupid. It's intended as a satire, simple as that. Try not to over think it guys.

Satire, huh? So by telling a story of sexism with the genders reversed, the author is slyly poking fun at all the fuss about sexism in tech that we've been hearing lately, and showing us how ridiculous it all is. That's an interesting take, 'cause I sure didn't read it that way. To me it seems more like a straight put-yourself-in-her-shoes appeal to empathy for women who brave the tech industry.

Isn't this more a story of sexualization and objectification than sexism? It was an interesting read to empathize with the uncomfortableness of the situation, but the sexualization stood out to me far more sexism.

Re: Men In Tech

#104

Post by Ixiaus » Sat, May 12, 2012, 4:25 PM UTC

davidtanner wrote: post #99

robconery wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're being a tad too literal with your critique (if I may). The whole point is to take you into a realm that's utterly absurd from the male perspective -- which is entirely my point in writing this . Yes, male nurses face weird moments in life - but as you say it's mostly from other men. That has nothing to do with being a woman in the tech industry who get to listen to cracks about "being on the rag" or PMSing whe…

I'll stop looking at womens' chests when they stop looking at men's arms, legs, groin and ass. That said, both men and women can look in appropriate glancing ways or inappropriate staring ways.

There are two things here that need to be addressed:

1. I agree, hypocrisy is ridiculous - I workout 6 days a week, am deeply engrained in programming, and have females everywhere (in my industry and outside of it) constantly staring at me, or making comments about my "nice ass". Does it bother me? No. But that leads into my second point...

2. Gender roles and cultures are very different, I agree that there is a problem but it's hard to pin-point it because honestly, passive-aggressive geeks that aren't getting laid just embarrass me as a man when I see them try to interact with women and the women that are bitching and moaning about sexism are doing exactly that: bitching and moaning.

I don't have a solution for this, boys will be boys and girls will be girls - our industry has a history of being a place for the socially awkward and inept to collect. There is a correlation there even if not all members fit the stereotype.

[EDIT] I'm a dude btw

Re: Men In Tech

#105

Post by Ixiaus » Sat, May 12, 2012, 4:33 PM UTC

oh_sigh wrote: post #92

robconery wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're being a tad too literal with your critique (if I may). The whole point is to take you into a realm that's utterly absurd from the male perspective -- which is entirely my point in writing this . Yes, male nurses face weird moments in life - but as you say it's mostly from other men. That has nothing to do with being a woman in the tech industry who get to listen to cracks about "being on the rag" or PMSing whe…

What world do you live in where people make jokes about PMS to coworkers? Honestly, in my lifetime, I have heard maybe hundreds of jokes about PMS from women, and maybe 2 from men.

In general, I have to agree with this - but the part that bothers me is men are being stigmatized for having the conversations that are typical for a group of guys. What is frustrating is women often complain about not being included - but when they do and when they are the minority (2 women in a group of 10 guys, say) they also complain about sexism or "boys talking about sex all the time". Whatever else it is we talk about.

I dunno what I'm saying anymore, this topic is remarkably frustrating for me as a man because I can see where women are coming from, they don't want to feel like the minority even though they are and I don't necessarily see anything wrong with the way men "socialize" with each other but it is also a deterrent for women in joining our industry.

Another point to raise. What if women wanted in on men's football? Casting away the physical disparity and only considering the cultural implications, I could see this very same kind of interaction happening - the only difference is, in our industry the barrier to entry is an intellectual one but we still bring all of our gender-assigned cultural baggage along with us...

Re: Men In Tech

#106

Post by wpietri » Sat, May 12, 2012, 4:35 PM UTC

georgieporgie wrote: post #98

wpietri wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not persuaded. I know a number of socially inept people. Some of them are perfectly pleasant, just hopelessly awkward. Others are jerks to everyone. But some are sexist jerks. And there are some people who are perfectly well socialized who are also sexist jerks. Women were oppressed for millennia. Women in the US haven't had the vote for even 100 years. Men and women didn't have equal college enrollment rates unt…

And there are some people who are perfectly well socialized who are also sexist jerks. Okay. I maintain that in the tech community , it's horrible social skills that's driving the majority of what appears to be gender bias, sexual harassment, etc. I also maintain that focusing on developing better social skills, empathy, etc. will do far, far more to solve the problem than simply pointing out over and over again the…

Your theory that apparent sexism in the tech community is actually only poor social skills requires that sexism in the tech community has died out. Because otherwise poor social skills would just make the tech community sexism more obvious than mainstream sexism.

Which I think is exactly the case. Sexism is a millennia-deep, society-wide problem. I think it's absurd to say that the tech community is actually not sexist like the rest of society, but just happens to act the same way for a different reason.

I'm sure you weren't intending to derail. Few do. But speaking as a fellow privileged person, you should be very suspicious when something comes out of your mouth that just happens to reduce or eliminate your responsibility for acknowledging your privilege in a situation.

Like, for example, suggesting that sexism isn't the problem, but rather those poorly socialized nerds.

Re: Men In Tech

#107

Post by s_baby » Sat, May 12, 2012, 4:43 PM UTC

wpietri wrote: post #95

s_baby wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I'm sorry you've received crap. Due to your gender or anything else. But understand that jumping into a discussion of sexism with "but that happens to me too!" is such a common problem that it's listed in the "Derailing for Dummies" guide: http://www.derailingfordummies.com/menu.html This guide makes zero rational arguments for why those examples are derailment... It's completely rhetorical. Intellectually, it's app…

Derailment is a purely rhetorical technique, so I'm not seeing the problem. I agree that patriarchy is bad for pretty much everybody. But the rhetorical effect of "but what about the time a woman was mean to meeeee" isn't to raise awareness of power dynamics so that people see the real issue as patriarchy or kyriarchy and find action even more urgent. It's to devalue the given examples of sexist behavior so that the…

>Derailment is a purely rhetorical technique, so I'm not seeing the problem.

The problem is you made an appeal to authority to "derailing for dummies"...

>It's to devalue the given examples of sexist behavior so that the privileged person can avoid confronting their privilege.

Half of those points could be made by someone who has no intention of derailing. They can be legitimate observations.

Re: Men In Tech

#108

Post by Ixiaus » Sat, May 12, 2012, 4:49 PM UTC

emgreen wrote: post #83

I like this as an exercise in empathy. It's important to consider how we treat the "odd ones out" in any group. Maybe we're on snowboarding holiday with friends who are all mad keen boarders, except for one who's never seen snow before, we'd probably adjust our behaviour and hang out on the baby slopes a bit and help out our friend. Or maybe we're organising a work party, and it would normally be a slightly boozy aff…

The problem though, is empathy is going to be really hard for men -> women or women -> men; both sexes are remarkably different culturally.

What you see is a large number of socially awkward and inept people flocking to industries where being socially tact is less valued over intellectual prowess. Women have always been more socially tactful than men - it's how our society is set up, women are treated as a valued commodity.

If you want a "close" approximation of figuring out what it's like to be the other gender in a "x dominated field", you should go the route of the author of this book: http://www.amazon.com/Self-Made-Man-Womans-Journey-Manhood/d...

She did a remarkable job of actually experiencing what being a man in our society is like. I would be very interested if someone of the male sex were to do something similar and write a book about it, this article doesn't cut it IMHO.

Re: Men In Tech

#109

Post by Ixiaus » Sat, May 12, 2012, 4:54 PM UTC

danso wrote: post #24

redwood wrote: post #22

Wtf, sure we need to be cognizant of discrimination against men in our society, and I think there are great arguments to be made that men are generally portrayed as dumb in TV shows, for example. However we cannot equate men's and women's experiences of the world we live in. I want to, and have the mistake of doing so many times, but I've since seen how wrong I've been. My female friend told me the following which ra…

Great points. Just had to say: I've heard that holding car keys at the ready is also intended as a impromptu sharp weapon to an attacker's face/eyes. Which only underscores your general point

That actually is the reason why you hold your car keys. It's less of a "being able to get in the car quickly" and more about being able to "gouge their eye out".

Re: Men In Tech

#110

Post by NotMyMorals » Sat, May 12, 2012, 5:03 PM UTC

Have to admit I don't really care if there are fewer women in tech, or if they feel uncomfortable in a boy's club, and don't see any reason why we should have to change to make them feel better.

Just because "sexism" is against your moral code doesn't mean it's against mine.

The old joke is true - to avoid sexual harassment accusations: 1) be attractive, 2) don't be unattractive. I've dated plenty of women at work, flirt all the time, and no one has ever accused me of "harassment" or "sexism."

My boss lady caught me checking out her ass once, the next few weeks she wore short skirts and made sure to walk by my desk. It was great.