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Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

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Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#581

Post by punnerud »

markhahn wrote: post #29
hoofhearted wrote: post #21

Sooo they have been stealing Infiniti's from my area recently with relative ease allegedly by using a Bluetooth obd2 reader connected to an android tablet running a pirated copy of some Nissan service tech software. Nobody from any of the Infiniti groups is 100% certain how they are doing it, but the best theory out there is above. Just the other night, a crew of dudes stole 3 Q50’s from my neighborhood with relative…

Obviously, we want owners to have full access to their car's CANBUS. So the question is: how should the OBD-2 plug (or wiring) be protected?

Seems like the CANBUS is deactivated when the car is turned off on Volkswagen. Guess that is one way to fix it?

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#582

Post by mecsred »

AndrewKemendo wrote: post #320
keiferski wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's an interesting thought, but I would say instead that I'm in favor of culture being the "first line of defense" and not the law. In other words, I can leave my door unlocked because I am a part of a culture where that sort of thing doesn't happen. Not because there is a law written down somewhere. This has functionally been my experience in a number of spaces, including private workspaces (i.e., you don't expec…

The reason the rule of law exists at the scale it does is precisely because what you describe, has not shown to create functional long term societies that are resilient to exogenous threats. The rule of law is literally humanity’s best attempt so far to explicitly codify human desires into a common set of descriptions. This is why the UN exists and the LON before it etc…

I don't think your evidence supports your argument at all. Pick any consistently governed region, even one with regime changes. Compared to the UN, which is unable to affect some of the worst genocides in recorded history. As well as the League of Nations, an institution notable for accomplishing nothing. Nothing is immune to external threats but institutions that avoid them by doing nothing on critical issues are not the most inspiring examples.

The rule of law is our best attempt at codifying Individual freedoms, outside and above the power of the state. Definitely a noble goal, but leads to the observations made by the parent comment.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#583

Post by fargle »

stupid on stupid.

- it's incredibly stupid to ban the flipper zero because it's factually not even part of the problem

- but it's equally stupid to "ban insecure vehicles". if kia makes a cheap car with crappy locks either don't buy it (because maybe insurance) or add and aftermarket immobilizer or a steering wheel lock. if it was really negligent of kia to "save a couple bucks", then it's equally negligent on you for not spending a couple bucks.

- i also cringe at the idea that we throw the word negligent around when talking about failing to prevent other peoples crimes. i'm not negligent for not doing enough to prevent the crimes of some other asshole. nor is kia. meanwhile, there's sibling threads here that point out that the us is far to hard on the criminals. so wait - kia and me and other law abiding entities are "negligent", but the asshole who stole the car deserves compasion, etc.?

- it's stupid-on-stupid-on-stupid to sit here discussing the problem of car thefts, caused by lack of enforcement of the existing laws against it, and the proposed solutions is making more things illegal (and arguing about which things).

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#584

Post by SoftTalker »

aosmith wrote: post #338
rasz wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Infinite Infinity car hack, came with two, left with three Q50s. They do crouch an awful lot near front wheel well. Reminds me of this Toyota hack where thieves plug into headlight canbus wiring thru wheel arch https://kentindell.github.io/2023/04/03/can-injection/

That's exactly what's happening. This is not a wireless attack, it's a physical access problem.

Hard to prevent theft of something parked on the street. Thieves can show up with a tow truck, hook the car, and drive away.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#585

Post by armada651 »

chankstein38 wrote: post #37
acdha wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is true in absolute terms but over simplified because it glosses over the differences in scale. We require cars to have seatbelts because even though people still die in crashes, it’s a statistically certainty that many fewer die when seatbelts are used. Setting minimum standards is a critical function of governments in maintaining healthy markets because it prevents cheating from being cost effective. If you ma…

Thank you. Reading through these comments I was surprised at how illogical so many of these comments are. People talking about towing cars or picking locks acting as if it's not obvious what the distinction is here. Yeah people, nothing can have perfect security. That's a given anyway. I think the point is that if you can steal it with a $250 device SDR device, the car's level of security is the issue not the device…

> Thank you. Reading through these comments I was surprised at how illogical so many of these comments are.

Many commenters on HN lean libertarian, thus some will go through great lengths and mental gymnastics to avoid the conclusion that government regulation is (part of) the answer.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#586

Post by carleton »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #274
InitialLastName wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because whenever it's even vaguely cold outside, my neighbor likes to be able to start and idle her giant truck in her driveway without leaving her house (for 40 minutes before she drives a mile to work).

Remote start is not to blame here. A manufacturer installed remote start system will shut the car off if a door opens. And the car should also shut off automatically after 5 to 10 minutes. Unfortunately, after market remote starter does not offer this capability, so with the new trend of monthly charges, if you like certain brands like Toyota, and you want that type of secure remote start, you have to pay $20 per mon…

2021 Honda here, OEM remote start system does not shut off the car if a door opens.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#587

Post by bachmann1234 »

Seems like most everyone here is ignoring that the flipper is not even an effective tool for car theft. It's capabilities have been exaggerated by staged videos.

You would have to get access to the original fob. Activate it near the flipper but out of range of the car. At which point...yes. You get one chance to unlock the original car which you lose if the original fob is used before you get there. Oh and then you gotta start it?

I don't know man. I feel like real car thieves use better tools

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#588

Post by Domenic_S »

withinboredom wrote: post #476
Domenic_S wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> counseling, a better home and school environment, food in the belly, and so on might. This seems right for preventing criminals from forming out of otherwise-blank-slate children, but what do you do with these kids? There's no magic wand that turns their home & school life right. On the other hand, there are plenty of kids who had a perfectly fine and financed upbringing who turned into criminals and terrors, they…

The first thing is that there are no universal sets of morals. Ethics is a totally different beast but it’s something I’m not sure a young kid can wrap their heads around. But following “the rules” is something you can teach a kid and works until they are old enough to know when to break the rules. One thing we stressed to our son is: if you break the rules/laws, you will eventually get caught. So make sure whatever…

> The first thing is that there are no universal sets of morals.

That's a belief presented as fact. I'm not super excited about getting into a philosophical debate, but just something to consider:

"The rules: help your family, help your group, return favours, be brave, defer to superiors, divide resources fairly, and respect others’ property, were found in a survey of 60 cultures from all around the world." -- https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2019-02-11-seven-moral-rules-found...

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#589

Post by KTibow »

sidewndr46 wrote: post #10

This has to be one of the dumbest things I've read in a while. All vehicles are insecure. I can hook a tow truck to almost any vehicle, including an 80,000 lbs tractor trailer and drive off with it. That'd actually attract less attention that outright hotwiring a vehicle. The solution is to identify, arrest, and prosecute criminals. Which the government is not obligated to do in the US.

In other terms:

There's 3 ways to assign blame, to the maker of the tool, to the user of the tool, and to the target of the tool.

I think we can all agree that if the tool isn't designed to cause trouble we shouldn't blame the maker. I think blaming the target really depends on the situation - for example, when HP themselves decided to make ink cartridges use a chip and didn't sufficiently isolate the chip causing a security vulnerability, that's on HP. If the manufacturer could easily prevent or patch the vulnerability, that's on them. Tow trucks are something the manufacturer can't prevent.

But regardless, if you use it for malice I agree that you're the one who should be liable.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#590

Post by Domenic_S »

mrguyorama wrote: post #443
Domenic_S wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> counseling, a better home and school environment, food in the belly, and so on might. This seems right for preventing criminals from forming out of otherwise-blank-slate children, but what do you do with these kids? There's no magic wand that turns their home & school life right. On the other hand, there are plenty of kids who had a perfectly fine and financed upbringing who turned into criminals and terrors, they…

>a set of ethics & morals, and if those don't take real well there's always the all-seeing entity watching you at all times. Do you think we didn't have crime when the church was in charge?

Is that really what you think I said? How about making a point with less snark to it that I could respond to?
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