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Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

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Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#471

Post by ajkjk »

AndrewKemendo wrote: post #298
keiferski wrote: post #98

Philosophy warning: I don't know if there is a term for it, or if a philosopher/etc. has written about this phenomenon, but: a noticeable trend to me is what I'll call "the replacement of ethical expectations with specific, written down laws." Rather than expecting a human being to behave in certain ways intrinsically (i.e., normative ethics ) we tend to assume they will behave in the worst way possible, and then pas…

You just described the “rule of law” and this is the basis for how modern governments are formed and function A constitution is written and codifies the process for making ratifying and enforcing laws. That then is the common standard for some subset of behaviors as defined by the constitution which defines who it does and does not apply to. Different constitutions outline different processes but the structure of the…

I... don't think what they described is "rule of law" in any way.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#472

Post by kerowak »

GenerocUsername wrote: post #362
keiferski wrote: post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> has not shown to create functional long term societies that are resilient to exogenous threats. I don't think I agree with this. If anything, it seems more like the reverse: societies have been less-and-less willing to enforce assimilation and a certain set of society-wide cultural behaviors, and therefore they "fall back" to the rule of law as described by you.

As a melting pot, the US takes in a lot of folks from countries that are not doing very well... so in a way, if we keep importing folks from cultures that failed without trying to integrate them to our culture, and instead celebrate their original culture, eventually our amalgam culture will fail just like theirs did. Its why we have signs that say to "sit, not stand on toilets". You dont think we would need to write…

If American culture "fails," I'm gonna blame xenophobes like you who are incapable of adjusting to a dynamic world, not the "toilet standers."

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#473

Post by aidenn0 »

slily wrote: post #470
aidenn0 wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also illegal to possess a gun in Tokyo, not just illegal to shoot somebody.

1. Go look up how relevant guns are to overall crime rates in the US. 2. Go look up what happened to the last prime minister of Japan.

The context is talking about whether we should regulate the environment or just normative ethics; Tokyo has a lot of laws regulating the environment.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#474

Post by whimsicalism »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #429
whimsicalism wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hear what you're saying, I live in SF. My opinions are evolving on the subject. There is a lot of not profit-driven vandalism and violence that I witness here and disrupting fencers will obviously do nothing for that. But for car theft & other profit-driven commodity thefts, I do think targeting the markets can often be very effective.

I don't know. Many of these kids...they are from war torn communities (legal immigrants, refugees). They might be working through huge trauma, and they don't seem very organized at all (steal a car to...steal another car and/or knock over a gas station...then abandon the car on the street somewhere). There really isn't a market to target, the cars are almost always found after a few days, just trashed and damaged. Th…

In the US* but in Canada (subject of this article) many are shipped off - ie. 10% are never recovered in US, 40%+ never recovered in Canada.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#475

Post by AnarchismIsCool »

sokoloff wrote: post #128
tylerchilds wrote: post #85

At this point, banning security tools a violation of the second amendment. Microsoft suffers breach after breach after acquisition after acquisition. I verbally note them to my wife to remember, "This is not normal." and even she said, "Why do the numbers keep getting worse and worse." and I told her, "The database keeps getting larger and larger ever since they were only slapped on the wrist for not letting me boot…

I'm struggling to connect how the banning of security tools would be a violation of the (US) second amendment. A violation of the first, fourth, and ninth? I can see that. A propensity to violate the fifth? I can see that. But I can't see a strong connection to the second.

A way of looking at the second amendment is as a reduction in imbalanced power structures. Its purpose, depending on how you read it, but as practiced in the US, is to put the citizenry on more level footing with the government so the government doesn't get too excited with their power.

Security bypasses/tools/exploits in that context are useful for leveling the playing field in a conflict, for instance we know the NSA is hoarding them for militaristic purposes. So if we call them cyber weapons rather than security tools it starts to make sense that, per that reasoning, citizens should have access to them too.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#476

Post by withinboredom »

Domenic_S wrote: post #299
ryandrake wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If someone is stealing cars at 12 or 13 years old, they're already well on their way down the path towards irredeemability. Society has to do something or they will turn into a lifelong criminal. A multi-year prison sentence is probably not going to help them, but counseling, a better home and school environment, food in the belly, and so on might. You have to do something besides "catch and release" which has been t…

> counseling, a better home and school environment, food in the belly, and so on might. This seems right for preventing criminals from forming out of otherwise-blank-slate children, but what do you do with these kids? There's no magic wand that turns their home & school life right. On the other hand, there are plenty of kids who had a perfectly fine and financed upbringing who turned into criminals and terrors, they…

The first thing is that there are no universal sets of morals. Ethics is a totally different beast but it’s something I’m not sure a young kid can wrap their heads around. But following “the rules” is something you can teach a kid and works until they are old enough to know when to break the rules.

One thing we stressed to our son is: if you break the rules/laws, you will eventually get caught. So make sure whatever you are doing is worth the consequences.

There’s no need for some magical god to punish people, just the fact that, eventually, someone will figure out what you did (or more likely, they’ll tell on themselves). It’s worked so far…

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#477

Post by nonethewiser »

jakelazaroff wrote: post #157
nonethewiser wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

That anecdote is a non sequitur, but nonetheless: I assume you didn't see the full video, where it turned out that the police assaulted the "illegals" unprovoked? https://www.thecity.nyc/2024/02/08/times-square-migrants-arr... That Fox News article is mostly information-free, but my takeaway is that it's blaming "bail reform" for the release of the people the police assaulted, which is abjectly false: they were charg…

> I assume you didn't see the full video, where it turned out that the police assaulted the "illegals" unprovoked?

I did see the full video and that's not assault. The police are well within their right to break up a congregation of disorderly juveniles outside homeless shelters. When they resisted that they arrested them. Good. Why are you bending over backwards to protect people with this sort of history?

> At the time of his arrest, he was already walking free despite more than a dozen pending larceny charges, including six felonies related to credit card theft.

> Some, but not all, of the suspects and their associates are part of an "Oliver Twist"-style group of Venezuelan pickpockets who operate a ring around Times Square and other tourist attractions, law enforcement sources told Fox News Digital Friday.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/illegals-who-caught-bus-out-nyc-a...

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#478

Post by throwitaway222 »

darkwater wrote: post #287
mbork_pl wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For good reasons I wouldn't be so sure... > just with a lot of unforeseen consequences. Exactly, a classical case of Chesterton's fence. > The laws we're passing are a consequence of belief systems too. Some of them are (and you're making a very good point here!), but some of them may be just pragmatic. > For people who see the world that way, these beliefs are unfalsifiable Again, very true. > just like the belief…

> As a Catholic, I think I can tell you that it might be more nuanced. I believe that ethical norms are not some arbitrary rules, but are a bit like the part of a manual for some device that says under what conditions the device works properly and under what conditions it may break, only for humans. As in "if you commit adultery, you will end up unhappy; you have been warned". Forewords: I was raised in a Catholic fa…

Not everyone is as smart as someone that thinks of the golden rule "on their own", therefor religious ethics has its place.

Also, we grew up in a society that already had this in place, essentially you could have grown up on this planet instead: https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Battle_Lines_(episode), and you would probably grab a gun, shoot someone because they had something you wanted rather than thinking of the golden rule at all.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#479

Post by mrguyorama »

keiferski wrote: post #190
2024throwaway wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> religions have been the foundation of pretty much all ethical behavior since the beginning of civilization I reject this statement wholeheartedly, and find it a pretty disgusting stance. The idea that the only reason not to kill someone (or otherwise act ethically) is due to religion is horrendous, especially given most religions historical track record on murdering others and other ethical violations.

I think you'd have a pretty difficult time constructing a history of morality that doesn't involve what we refer to as "religion." Certainly that doesn't mean that all religious beliefs are good or justifiable, but that isn't what I claimed, either. I just claimed they were the foundation.

> I just claimed they were the foundation.

That's an extreme claim that requires extreme evidence. You don't just get to pretend your preferred interpretation of a history that humans don't even have (prewriting society) is correct just because you want it to be.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#480

Post by slily »

aidenn0 wrote: post #473
slily wrote: post #470

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Go look up how relevant guns are to overall crime rates in the US. 2. Go look up what happened to the last prime minister of Japan.

The context is talking about whether we should regulate the environment or just normative ethics; Tokyo has a lot of laws regulating the environment.

I don't know if you're pretending to be unaware or genuinely ignorant, but no. Japanese society places extreme emphasis on teaching children to behave respectfully in society and these values are taught from early childhood to adulthood. If you want to attribute their low crime rate to gun control you'll have to bring something halfway convincing to the table.
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