Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

saveflipper.ca

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

121–130 of 916 posts

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#121

Post by saint_fiasco »

acdha wrote: post #16
h2odragon wrote: post #2

Or, enforce existing laws against theft ... "Ban insecure vehicles" is chasing the technology of locks; there's always another circumvention.

This is true in absolute terms but over simplified because it glosses over the differences in scale. We require cars to have seatbelts because even though people still die in crashes, it’s a statistically certainty that many fewer die when seatbelts are used. Setting minimum standards is a critical function of governments in maintaining healthy markets because it prevents cheating from being cost effective. If you ma…

> We require cars to have seatbelts

Seatbelts are not adversarial. A better seatbelt does not encourage other drivers to crash their cars into you even harder or anything like that, it's people versus nature.

Security systems are in a permanent arms race, people versus people. You could have a more expensive lock that requires a more expensive device to defeat, but this makes your car more expensive to make, so it has a higher price, so it becomes a more valuable target, and so on.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#122

Post by axus »

bluGill wrote: post #95
Chris2048 wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

but then you'd need a tow truck.. Doesn't seem a lot simpler, anyone could snap a pic of your registration plate. I think towing a vehicle does attract a fair amount of attention, especially if there is no obvious reason for it. Also, they don't need to steal the car - if they can freely open it can can just steal anything inside.

A tow truck attracts attention - there will be a dozen witnesses who watch you do everything - not one will think to remember any details that can identify you. Just replace the vinyl sticker on the door with your false company name on after each job and you are safe from being caught.

A tow truck costs more than a tablet. The guys and the tablets performing the theft are disposable, tow truck is not.

Rapid scanning of export shipping containers with AI processing to detect the contents might help curb the demand for the stolen cars.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#124

Post by gchamonlive »

whiterknight wrote: post #93
gchamonlive wrote: post #17

Security flaws are not born equal. I think there is supposed to be a clear distinction between flaws inherent in technology -- since you only know what you know nobody should be expected to develop impenetrable digital fortresses since that doesn't exist and would actually be harmful for the consumer -- and those flaws born out of neglect. The latter should be specified and treated accordingly, because it isn't a val…

Guns can be made DIY, but laws still mitigate.

There is a big difference in putting together deadly artifacts and electronic devices you can fabricate using off-the-shelf chips and open protocols. Not saying you can't discuss regulating them, but to me they are in a different set of categories. Weapons are by default dangerous, their sole purpose being to cause physical harm, while a flipper zero can be used for instructional purposes and research.

As much as I hate the concept, it would be ridiculous for me to propose regulating Alexa because a kid can cause financial harm to the parents using it, but a weapon can't be in any imaginable circumstance reachable by anyone untrained.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#125

Post by eertami »

newsclues wrote: post #43
hoofhearted wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fix the cars. A brand new $60,000 car shouldn’t be so simple to swipe. They probably spent less time stealing my neighbors car than he did waiting on the credit check to buy the car lol… it’s crazy these days with cars.

Cars are computers now. What do we know about computer security and physical access? If I can touch the machine, I can hack and own it. No level of technology will stop this. But cutting off the profit motive by making it very hard to export cars will have a massive impact on these crimes, and for old and new cars.

> No level of technology will stop this.

Except for you know, the technology of a physical car keys and an immobilizer. There's a reason it's the keyless entry start/stop button cars that are being targeted by thieves, it's simply so much easier.

The frustrating thing is that new cars are being produced that _only_ offer keyless entry, and so eventually the choice is taken away or you have to drive a very old car.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#127

Post by uconnectlol »

correct, someone says something right for once. also vehicle theft will happen no matter what since they have physical access to your vehicle. scammy, scummy, corporate pitches like "you just press this button and it opens for you" with zero research on how to implement that securely (even thought it was known in the 70s), which just make the hacker be able to press a button and open it, are not anyone's problem aside from the clout chasing consumer "who doesn't have time" to research any "sophisticated tech" he buys, and the corporation. consumers should know by now that "smart tech" = a teenager can hack it.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#128

Post by sokoloff »

tylerchilds wrote: post #85

At this point, banning security tools a violation of the second amendment. Microsoft suffers breach after breach after acquisition after acquisition. I verbally note them to my wife to remember, "This is not normal." and even she said, "Why do the numbers keep getting worse and worse." and I told her, "The database keeps getting larger and larger ever since they were only slapped on the wrist for not letting me boot…

I'm struggling to connect how the banning of security tools would be a violation of the (US) second amendment.

A violation of the first, fourth, and ninth? I can see that. A propensity to violate the fifth? I can see that. But I can't see a strong connection to the second.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#130

Post by eunos »

keiferski wrote: post #98

Philosophy warning: I don't know if there is a term for it, or if a philosopher/etc. has written about this phenomenon, but: a noticeable trend to me is what I'll call "the replacement of ethical expectations with specific, written down laws." Rather than expecting a human being to behave in certain ways intrinsically (i.e., normative ethics ) we tend to assume they will behave in the worst way possible, and then pas…

>My theory is that this is a consequence of relativism and the general cultural exhaustion Western society seems to have with enforcing any sort of religious or ethical norms.

Uhh noo, this philosophy already there as old as Chinese Legalism ca 400 BC

Post reply on HN