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Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

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Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#391

Post by kube-system »

acdha wrote: post #355
kube-system wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that the dealer equipment being used to steal cars today is coming from dealers where management is knowingly engaging in car theft. It is other people who are misusing those tools. There are many hundreds of thousands of people who work at dealerships, and many do not care about their employers reputation. Also, many dealerships are broken into.

Yes, which is why I suggested a combination of measures to change that. An active per-device transaction would make it clear when a dealer’s access is being misused, and if it affects their business viability it would turn out that they could do a better job of controlling access. Hundreds of thousands of people work at banks, too, and many of them do not care about their employers but thefts from customer accounts a…

What would that look like in reality? Expecting dealerships to have the same physical security, procedures, and security vetting of a bank? There's already a shortage of workers in these roles, now we want the guys busting their knuckles on vehicle repairs to have a good credit score and good background check and perform elaborate opening and closing procedures with a buddy system? Storing tools in a vault?

I really don't see how any of this is merited or reasonable, especially when the vast majority of the cars being stolen in my neighborhood are either stolen with the keys or with a tow truck.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#392

Post by lainga »

dghlsakjg wrote: post #381
lainga wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And now we come to the unfortunate fact that there is no equivalent in English for the distinction between Recht and Gesetz , or droit and loi , both being subsumed under the term law . The former is an immanent thing, a "shared search after justice". The latter is temporal, it is written down and itemised in Strafgesetzbuche and Codes Civiles , and is very appealing to HNers because we can read "common standard for…

Isn't this explained in the phrase "the spirit of the law" vs. "the letter of the law", or is there more to the concept.

I think "spirit of the law" can be interpreted as how the (written) law was trying to get at The Law. But even that spirit is not The Law. Here's an example - modern Germany defines itself as a Rechtsstaat. On the face of it this is a "State of the rule of law". But this fails to capture what distinguishes it from a hypothetical Gesetzstaat, so Wikipedia also tries on "state of justice and integrity" and "constitutional state" to get the distinction across. And the absence of Recht - a Nichtrechtsstaat - is one "based on the arbitrary use of power".

The historical context is that of trying to define what in a state should set it apart from both the 3rd Reich and the DDR.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rechtsstaat

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#393

Post by nemo44x »

hoofhearted wrote: post #34
bpoyner wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The answer is simple, we need to ban android tablets. /s

Fix the cars. A brand new $60,000 car shouldn’t be so simple to swipe. They probably spent less time stealing my neighbors car than he did waiting on the credit check to buy the car lol… it’s crazy these days with cars.

Or make grand theft auto an offense that is actually prosecuted. Make hard penalties for violating another citizens by stealing their property. Start with 5 year minimums off the bat and every offense afterwards adds another 5 years. You'll see car theft plummet.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#394

Post by pdonis »

AndrewKemendo wrote: post #298
keiferski wrote: post #98

Philosophy warning: I don't know if there is a term for it, or if a philosopher/etc. has written about this phenomenon, but: a noticeable trend to me is what I'll call "the replacement of ethical expectations with specific, written down laws." Rather than expecting a human being to behave in certain ways intrinsically (i.e., normative ethics ) we tend to assume they will behave in the worst way possible, and then pas…

You just described the “rule of law” and this is the basis for how modern governments are formed and function A constitution is written and codifies the process for making ratifying and enforcing laws. That then is the common standard for some subset of behaviors as defined by the constitution which defines who it does and does not apply to. Different constitutions outline different processes but the structure of the…

> You just described the “rule of law”

What the article is describing is not the rule of law.

The rule of law would be: make theft a crime, and enforce that. Not: criminalize the use of security research tools to show which vehicles are more susceptible to theft.

> What you seem to want is for civil law to be subordinated in favor of common law

I think what the GP poster wants is to have the law limited to criminalizing things that are actual crimes, like theft, not things that are inconvenient to the rich and powerful.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#395

Post by graemep »

GenerocUsername wrote: post #362
keiferski wrote: post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> has not shown to create functional long term societies that are resilient to exogenous threats. I don't think I agree with this. If anything, it seems more like the reverse: societies have been less-and-less willing to enforce assimilation and a certain set of society-wide cultural behaviors, and therefore they "fall back" to the rule of law as described by you.

As a melting pot, the US takes in a lot of folks from countries that are not doing very well... so in a way, if we keep importing folks from cultures that failed without trying to integrate them to our culture, and instead celebrate their original culture, eventually our amalgam culture will fail just like theirs did. Its why we have signs that say to "sit, not stand on toilets". You dont think we would need to write…

Bad example. I believe squat toilets are actually better for you (less strain to use) so really there is a case to be made we (those who do not use them) should follow those who do.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#396

Post by bee_rider »

GenerocUsername wrote: post #362
keiferski wrote: post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> has not shown to create functional long term societies that are resilient to exogenous threats. I don't think I agree with this. If anything, it seems more like the reverse: societies have been less-and-less willing to enforce assimilation and a certain set of society-wide cultural behaviors, and therefore they "fall back" to the rule of law as described by you.

As a melting pot, the US takes in a lot of folks from countries that are not doing very well... so in a way, if we keep importing folks from cultures that failed without trying to integrate them to our culture, and instead celebrate their original culture, eventually our amalgam culture will fail just like theirs did. Its why we have signs that say to "sit, not stand on toilets". You dont think we would need to write…

The melting pot is a way of integrating people into our country. It has been criticized as being too homogenizing; and now I think (for the better) most people see it as a nice lumpy stew. We shouldn’t ask people to give up all their traditions or change completely to become American, it is a give and take communication process that we both benefit from.

WRT toilets, I think it has been shown that squatting actually reduces the strain when using the toilet; I think those signs reflect the fact that we are integrating new toilet information. They are part of the natural back-and-forth pushing process. Hopefully we’ll converge on a toilet that is lower to the ground but doesn’t have accessibility issues.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#397

Post by pdonis »

AndrewKemendo wrote: post #320
keiferski wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's an interesting thought, but I would say instead that I'm in favor of culture being the "first line of defense" and not the law. In other words, I can leave my door unlocked because I am a part of a culture where that sort of thing doesn't happen. Not because there is a law written down somewhere. This has functionally been my experience in a number of spaces, including private workspaces (i.e., you don't expec…

The reason the rule of law exists at the scale it does is precisely because what you describe, has not shown to create functional long term societies that are resilient to exogenous threats. The rule of law is literally humanity’s best attempt so far to explicitly codify human desires into a common set of descriptions. This is why the UN exists and the LON before it etc…

> This is why the UN exists and the LON before it

Um, you do realize that the League of Nations was a failure? And that the UN, although at least it still exists (unlike the LON, which only lasted a decade or so), has not accomplished anything meaningful in terms of enforcing actual norms of behavior?

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#398

Post by autoexec »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #350
autoexec wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We aren’t very serious about enforcing our laws, especially when kids are involved. In the US we lock more of our citizens behind bars than any other nation on Earth. Conviction for even a minor offense can make it extremely difficult to get employment or housing. People rarely get a clean slate after serving their time and even an arrest record without a conviction can haunt you. Nearly all other developed countri…

The US isn't very uniform. Mississippi locks way more people up than Washington state. Both states are pretty ineffective in keeping crime down. https://www.prisonpolicy.org/global/2021.html?gad_source=1&g... Washington is put at around Thailand, Mississippi locks more than twice as many people per capita up (and isn't very comparable to a country).

Well that's depressing. Thailand is not a country we should strive to emulate. They have their own mass incarceration problem (they rank 8th in the world), state executions, their own "war on drugs", lots of violent killings involving guns, high levels of corruption, forced disappearances, torture, extrajudicial killings, and a horrible track record for human rights. Thailand is a mess and it's tragic that so much of the US can't do any better when it comes to locking citizens behind bars.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#399

Post by bluGill »

jcims wrote: post #279
keiferski wrote: post #98

Philosophy warning: I don't know if there is a term for it, or if a philosopher/etc. has written about this phenomenon, but: a noticeable trend to me is what I'll call "the replacement of ethical expectations with specific, written down laws." Rather than expecting a human being to behave in certain ways intrinsically (i.e., normative ethics ) we tend to assume they will behave in the worst way possible, and then pas…

The same phenomenon can apply to organizations as well. Teachers and doctors in the US, for example, seem to have lost a substantial degree of discretion in how ply their respective trades. They instead must operate in compliance with an ever-growing number of runbooks prescribed to them by their relative authorities. This is likely driven in part to raise the floor in outcomes but it simultaneously lowers the ceilin…

> Teachers and doctors in the US, for example, seem to have lost a substantial degree of discretion in how ply their respective trades.

Mostly that is good. Discretion implies different results for different people and if you are on the bad end of that because you got a bad teacher/doctor that is a bad thing. Most people need the standard treatment in both education and medicine. Learning styles has been debunked in the literature, kids don't need a teacher who believes in that. Likewise most people have the same thing as everyone else - but there are a few one in a million exceptions that mean we need to go through the entire checklist before giving the regular treatment even though odds are the doctor will never see the exception. (sometimes that is give the regular treatment but see you again in 2 weeks to see if it is working which is annoying when the doctor normally says all is well)

There is a time for discretion. However that time is when you are a proper researcher looking for other treatments (under the watch of an ethics board), or when you have clearly exhausted all the normal things and they don't work (sometimes the checklist even says we don't know what to do here, try something and if it works we will adjust the checklist for next time.

The above is how flying got to be so safe. Decades of examining everything that went wrong - including near misses - and figuring out how to prevent them. Some doctors still struggle to remember to properly wash their hands by contrast.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#400

Post by tomrod »

keiferski wrote: post #98

Philosophy warning: I don't know if there is a term for it, or if a philosopher/etc. has written about this phenomenon, but: a noticeable trend to me is what I'll call "the replacement of ethical expectations with specific, written down laws." Rather than expecting a human being to behave in certain ways intrinsically (i.e., normative ethics ) we tend to assume they will behave in the worst way possible, and then pas…

Oh man, I'm getting echos of political philosophy and The City of God vs The City of Man. One reason I became an economist is because it explained things to me quite well. It is reasonable within economic frameworks to assume everyone is self interested. I've found I'm rarely disappointed working with that assumption.
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