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Apple broke iPhone web apps in the EU for anticompetitive reasons – Tim Sweeney

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Re: Apple broke iPhone web apps in the EU for anticompetitive reasons – Tim Sweeney

#91

He's right. Apple has been strangling web app progress on iOS for many years. They wanted to ensure that web apps could never compete with native apps on the App Store, because they can extract their 30% fee. Now that Apple are forced to permit third party browser engines, web apps would suddenly be a lot more powerful. Apple just won't have that, so they're disabling a useful feature for everyone. I think this will…

> The DMA requires free interoperability, and Apple has imposed a very anti-competitive fee.

From comments I read, quite a few people want it to require free interoperability, but I don’t see how it does. I even think it sort-of explicitly allows gatekeepers to keep charging for access. The pre-amble, point 62 starts with

“For software application stores, online search engines and online social networking services listed in the designation decision, gatekeepers should publish and apply general conditions of access that should be fair, reasonable and non-discriminatory.”

so that point is about application stores. Its second paragraph starts (emphasis added)

“PRICING or other general access conditions should be considered unfair if they lead to an imbalance of rights and obligations imposed on business users or confer an advantage on the gatekeeper which is disproportionate to the service provided by the gatekeeper to business users or lead to a disadvantage for business users in providing the same or similar services as the gatekeeper.”

To me, that points to them at least considering that.

Can you point me to where https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/reg/2022/1925/oj “requires free interoperability”?

If you think article 6.7 says that, I disagree. IMO, it only talks about access to SDKs, specs of device ports, ability to make the same system calls as the applications of the gatekeeper can make, etc.

Here’s article 6.7:

“The gatekeeper shall allow providers of services and providers of hardware, free of charge, effective interoperability with, and access for the purposes of interoperability to, the same hardware and software features accessed or controlled via the operating system or virtual assistant listed in the designation decision pursuant to Article 3(9) as are available to services or hardware provided by the gatekeeper. Furthermore, the gatekeeper shall allow business users and alternative providers of services provided together with, or in support of, core platform services, free of charge, effective interoperability with, and access for the purposes of interoperability to, the same operating system, hardware or software features, regardless of whether those features are part of the operating system, as are available to, or used by, that gatekeeper when providing such services.”

Re: Apple broke iPhone web apps in the EU for anticompetitive reasons – Tim Sweeney

#92

He's right. Apple has been strangling web app progress on iOS for many years. They wanted to ensure that web apps could never compete with native apps on the App Store, because they can extract their 30% fee. Now that Apple are forced to permit third party browser engines, web apps would suddenly be a lot more powerful. Apple just won't have that, so they're disabling a useful feature for everyone. I think this will…

Just to make a supporting argument to this... I introduced my son to neal.fun this morning and he asked "can you make this easier for me to get to?" and I was like, "sure, there's some way to pin it to the home screen." I know this feature exists and I've even written code to support this feature ... yet I spent nearly 5 minutes looking for the button. Hiding it in the share sheet is downright stupid.

it would be nice to strongly suggest a cross browser idea in the manifest "standard" that is an unstable draft but anyways... that is complicated because it is actually now a browser decision

my idea would be long pressing the domain (2 sec) and then standalone mode and "app" icon... like the icon appears and you drop it on your home screen (on desktop other stuff like a prompt do you want a launcher icon, a desktop icon or just integration into apps)

it is extremely universal and easy to remember, practically you grab the web domain and pack it into an icon and drop it onto your home screen or game folder on the home screen etc...

a clear, instinctive user choice... you learn it on one domain and apply it by all other

actually, you do not even need a manifest file if you have some favicon and short app name in the html...

it is just a user choice to switch to standalone mode from tab mode, aka use it as an app

it would also clear up these unnecessary buzzwords and non-standard failing wording like "progressive" "PWA" or "install"...

I understand what people meant with these words back then but it just confuses even tech people... nowadays standalone mode ("install") is orthogonal to whether the website is capable, good, progressive or whatever...

like the .fun domain is a nice game that your child tried and enjoyed, it is hopefully well written so you want to use it in standalone instead of tab mode... you do it without fear of installing anything (nothing is installed) and if everything ok you use it launching it directly from the home screen without browser UI... seemless, that is the actual idea, no need for confusing and contraproductive wording

Re: Apple broke iPhone web apps in the EU for anticompetitive reasons – Tim Sweeney

#93

He's right. Apple has been strangling web app progress on iOS for many years. They wanted to ensure that web apps could never compete with native apps on the App Store, because they can extract their 30% fee. Now that Apple are forced to permit third party browser engines, web apps would suddenly be a lot more powerful. Apple just won't have that, so they're disabling a useful feature for everyone. I think this will…

> I think this will backfire on them.

How?

In the Apple consumer's eye, Apple can do no wrong.

The Apple consumer will always blame any problem on some other company or government.

Re: Apple broke iPhone web apps in the EU for anticompetitive reasons – Tim Sweeney

#94
post #59

It's incredibly convenient for Apple that there's overlap between safety features and anti-competive behaviors. Every time somebody says "I don't want vendor lock-in", they flip it to "Oh, so you don't want safety?" But these are often false dichotomies created by Apple. Reviewing and rejecting apps for fraud and malware is great, but Apple bundled that with rejecting apps for using the word "Android" and whatever ot…

Completely agree with this. We lose some of this nuance when we follow Apple’s line of reasoning that it’s a binary choice: safety OR openness.

Re: Apple broke iPhone web apps in the EU for anticompetitive reasons – Tim Sweeney

#95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same subset of people who just go to the App Store just take their car to the dealership for oil changes (a lot) As tech people we tend to see through apples "dealer" bullshit, just like car people.

Is there a way that I can not like the same things that you like without you thinking that I’m not smart?

[flagged]

Re: Apple broke iPhone web apps in the EU for anticompetitive reasons – Tim Sweeney

#96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know plenty of people in Apple CS. Most of them are loyal to apple, and have worked there long term. Apple takes good care of its "regular people" in the states.

I know an Apple worker (don't know what you mean by CS), and he's worked there for decades and from all reports they do treat the employees they value very well. Not sure about the more expendable ones though. In any case, my comment was a little tongue in cheek.

CS as in Customer Service... the people who have the shitty job of answering the phone!

Not only are they loyal, they are sharp and know their stuff.

Apple taxes everyone (devs', users etc) and pays staff well, (living wage all that) and makes a ton of money.

Re: Apple broke iPhone web apps in the EU for anticompetitive reasons – Tim Sweeney

#97

He's right. Apple has been strangling web app progress on iOS for many years. They wanted to ensure that web apps could never compete with native apps on the App Store, because they can extract their 30% fee. Now that Apple are forced to permit third party browser engines, web apps would suddenly be a lot more powerful. Apple just won't have that, so they're disabling a useful feature for everyone. I think this will…

As much as I would love to agree, the general population really does not care about features like "home screen web apps". Nobody outside of HN even knows what they are. Everyone just goes on the app store and downloads random website app. Even if it is just a browser app that renders a website. Apple would have to eliminate something that people actually care about for any boycott Apple to happen.

While I think this is probably true, I was surprised that a recent ask for a PWA implementation of a web app that I built was an iOS user. They do exist and I actually think on Safari, the action to add to home page feels more accessible.

Re: Apple broke iPhone web apps in the EU for anticompetitive reasons – Tim Sweeney

#98
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IDK about making their own hardware, but it is weird to me that people complain and then continue to buy iPhones and develop for iOS. If developers and users moved to Android, Apple would change. Is Android really so bad that people feel forced to use iOS?

Yes it is. Smirk aside, yes I have tried Android devices before and I find them basically unusable so iOS it is for me. Not in the EU so these changes don’t affect me, that may play a role.

Funny. That's how I feel about iOS. I have an issued iOS device that I almost never use because the UI is unintuitive to me.

I guess there are 10 types of people in this world. Those who like the iOS UI and those who don't.

Re: Apple broke iPhone web apps in the EU for anticompetitive reasons – Tim Sweeney

#99

Does Apple think its shenanigans are going to precipitate a backlash against EU regulation? Because every time I read about a new round of BS my blood boils and my attitude against Apple and other huge anticompetitive corporates just hardens.

Apple is a shitty company that makes very good products and has very good marketing (which has basically ensorcelled a lot of people to reduce their judgment)

I always thought so too, but I would say that they are merely relatively good products. Although I don't like the UI, the UX, and the cost, I always thought that Apple products are objectively good, i.e. they are stable. However, I've recently learned from others that that's not/no longer the case.

Re: Apple broke iPhone web apps in the EU for anticompetitive reasons – Tim Sweeney

#100
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Precisely. Stop supporting iOS and watch their attitude change. Fact is these companies whine but don’t pull their apps.

Because their hands are pretty much tied. That's called monopoly position.

It’s not a monopoly position by any legal (or really even useful) definition. In the EU they are 24% or so of phone shipments… This is more a “we want money from those users because they’re mostly rich” situations…
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