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Why we can’t build family-sized apartments in North America

centerforbuilding.org

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Re: Why we can’t build family-sized apartments in North America

#61

Post by foofie »

bobthepanda wrote: post #9
bouncing wrote: post #2

> In February, I, along with real estate developer Bobby Fijan, went on the Bloomberg podcast Odd Lots to talk about why it’s so hard to find a family-sized apartment in the United States. I argued that North American zoning and building codes work together to drive up the size of multi-bedroom apartments in particular, putting them financially out of reach for many parents raising children. In other words, even if d…

One thing to keep in mind is that in the US there are often things like setback restrictions and distance separation requirements such, so a small increase in square footage can be the difference between a building fitting on a lot, and not. You can of course buy more lots to combine but that takes more money, and more time, because you have to wait for a bunch of adjacent lot owners to sell.

> One thing to keep in mind is that in the US there are often things like setback restrictions and distance separation requirements such, so a small increase in square footage can be the difference between a building fitting on a lot, and not.

Any country with urban planning and building codes imposes this sort of restrictions.

Re: Why we can’t build family-sized apartments in North America

#62

Post by woah »

tempsy wrote: post #44

America is mostly suburban by choice. Most people do not want to live in an apartment or condo long term if they plan on raising or have a family if they live basically anywhere that isn’t NYC. I find the YIMBY assumption that everyone wishes every city and town was more NYC to just be untrue. People just want detached houses to be cheaper. Most aren’t dreaming about affording a 3 or 4 bed apartment.

Why are apartments in the city so much more expensive then? Your opinion is contradicted by reality.

Re: Why we can’t build family-sized apartments in North America

#63

Post by sandworm101 »

sspiff wrote: post #23
bouncing wrote: post #2

> In February, I, along with real estate developer Bobby Fijan, went on the Bloomberg podcast Odd Lots to talk about why it’s so hard to find a family-sized apartment in the United States. I argued that North American zoning and building codes work together to drive up the size of multi-bedroom apartments in particular, putting them financially out of reach for many parents raising children. In other words, even if d…

>Just everything in Europe is tiny. T i n y. And frankly, it's not that much cheaper over here either. I would argue the other way, as a European, I've been to multiple places Asia and the Middle East and everything is either the same size or smaller than in Europe. I haven't been to Africa or the Americas, but I'd say from my perspective, that things in the US are just extra large.

There are many reasons behind this. It isn't just a fashion for bigger things. I chalk much of it up to differences in work culture. My European friends often talk about pickup up food on the way home from work, dropping in at a store to buy ingredients for dinner. I don't have time to shop like that. My food run is once a week. That means more food in a bigger fridge. They also go out to eat far more than we in North America. When work is busy I can easily go a month, sometimes months, without eating at sit-down restaurant. That is unheard of across much of Europe.

Last time I was in Europe at a friend's place they asked where I wanted to go for breakfast. Breakfast? I don't need to pay someone else to fry me an egg.

Re: Why we can’t build family-sized apartments in North America

#64

Post by lex-lightning »

pwb25 wrote: post #20
tomrod wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sued out of existence for ignoring licensing laws during startup, I'd reckon. Or, contractors. I get the feeling residential building doesn't scale well outside of monopolistic competition, partially from red tape, partially from supply constraints/supplier network monopsonies.

I mean they could try to talk to politicians and NIMBYs but it seems like many programmers in silicon valley enjoy their wooden walls houses with no shops or bars around them just because they go up in value

Your assessment of the problem is accurate but persuasion so far has proven intractable.

I live in Portland. I’ve been cornered for my opinion on urbanization, so I’ll give it.

But at least here, many people have black and white opinions. Either you don’t care about the environment or you don‘t care about displacement.

This is why we needed the Green New Deal or Build Back Better. Urbanize, but increase social safety nets, provide rent control…

I don’t claim to know which levers to pull, but we definitely need to pull more than one at once to meet the goals of increasing density without driving people out of their own neighborhoods.

But doesn’t it seem strange that increasing density would increase displacement?

The US has a lot of political barriers to things like the Green New Deal. So when areas are urbanized, those against urbanization can point to the flawed execution and they certainly have a point.

That said, I’d love to see the Green New Deal return.

Re: Why we can’t build family-sized apartments in North America

#65

Post by steveBK123 »

vehemenz wrote: post #54

This is something I noticed in China. I lived in a 3-bed, 1450 sqft apartment in Xicheng, Beijing that had a great layout. It went up six stories and had a single staircase, four apartments per story. Having light on both sides of an apartment makes the whole apartment brighter and improves air circulation. Almost every apartment I visited had a similar layout—totally unlike apartments I've seen in the U.S. A townhom…

1450-sqft is more 2BR size in NYC for sure. Layout is underappreciated as well in terms of apartments versus freestanding homes. I've had North facing apartments that never got much light, and South facing apartments that got baked by the sun (75F indoors when it's 45F out on a sunny day). You can't really ventilate that 75F apartment when all the windows are on the same side. Both suck. Having 2-3 exposures in an apartment layout is a rare luxury. So we get no circulation and need to run central air more.

Re: Why we can’t build family-sized apartments in North America

#66

Post by ClumsyPilot »

bluescrn wrote: post #25

'Family' and 'Apartment' are words that don't go very well together. Children/large families can be noisy. And they benefit from safe outdoor space to play. For the childless WFH-er trying to concentrate, it's not much fun when kids noisily use the communal areas of apartment buildings as a playground. I know this from experience. Thankfully, noise-cancelling headphones are pretty good these days.

> 'Family' and 'Apartment' are words that don't go very well together.

This is a very Anglo-spheric perspective, and it's because you guys can't build nice apartments

I grew up in a nice apartment in Eastern Europe, the building had an enclosed courtyard and was a safe place for dozens of kids to play and socialise. You would let out kids without supervision, there are always adults around and they all know each-other. If something serious was going down, they would intervene and call relevant parents.

There are always old grandmas sitting on the bench, gossiping and eating sunflower seeds, they were the biological CCTV system. You could also always look out the window and see what your kid is doing.

Courtyard here is "don't step on grass', 'don't make noise', 'don't play games', so what the hell is it for?

Quite frankly English and Americans just don't get how to build nice cities at all, that's why they always want to move to the suburbs or some village.

Re: Why we can’t build family-sized apartments in North America

#67

Post by carom »

Another perspective, (Los Angeles) rent control makes turn over attractive. If you are capped on increases in a way that your rents falling below market means they can only reach market when a tenant moves out, you want to rent to people who move out often. That means building units that rent to students and are unsuitable to start a family in.

This isn't the dense city I want you live in. I would love to have long term stable tenants in normal market conditions. The price controls just structure it so that this is not attractive anymore.

Re: Why we can’t build family-sized apartments in North America

#68

Post by lxgr »

bouncing wrote: post #2

> In February, I, along with real estate developer Bobby Fijan, went on the Bloomberg podcast Odd Lots to talk about why it’s so hard to find a family-sized apartment in the United States. I argued that North American zoning and building codes work together to drive up the size of multi-bedroom apartments in particular, putting them financially out of reach for many parents raising children. In other words, even if d…

> as an American living in Portugal [...] Just everything in Europe is tiny.

Sorry to invoke a cliche here but... Europe doesn't start and end in Portugal.

There are plenty of large-family apartments in some cities. Especially new developments usually have a mix of studios, one-bedrooms and beyond.

In terms of old buildings (i.e. older than ~100 years), many European cities have apartment buildings designed for wealthy families that would house their staff in the same building. The problem there is actually that these are too large to rent out to most families, not the opposite.

Re: Why we can’t build family-sized apartments in North America

#70

Post by watwut »

bluGill wrote: post #50
nottorp wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the kitchen has a refrigerator smaller than the one my American best friend uses for beer It's possible that you can walk 5 min to get more beer while he has to drive 30 minutes?

Most people in America can drive for 5 minutes for more beer. If you can't legally drive because of how drunk you are, then most stores won't sell you more beer. People might drive 30 minutes for beer, but that is about either price or selection, not availability. Though many cities have weird laws so some places you can't get beer at all in town, and that would push you to the 30 minute drive. But where I live many…

You cant legally drive when you had one small beer. You can legally buy beers or other alcohol when you already had one beer. If the store is not selling you alcohol due to intoxication, you should stop driving several drinks ago.

I can get good selection of beers or other alcohol at reasonable price in the regular store within 5-10 min of walk anywhere in the city assuming it is not middle of the night.

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