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Why we can’t build family-sized apartments in North America

centerforbuilding.org

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Re: Why we can’t build family-sized apartments in North America

#41

Post by lex-lightning »

bluescrn wrote: post #25

'Family' and 'Apartment' are words that don't go very well together. Children/large families can be noisy. And they benefit from safe outdoor space to play. For the childless WFH-er trying to concentrate, it's not much fun when kids noisily use the communal areas of apartment buildings as a playground. I know this from experience. Thankfully, noise-cancelling headphones are pretty good these days.

I agree that soundproofing should be a high priority in apartment buildings.

I don’t know where you’re coming from as for safety. A single family home doesn’t imply safety and an apartment building can have both indoor and outdoor play areas.

Re: Why we can’t build family-sized apartments in North America

#42

Post by steveBK123 »

steveBK123 wrote: post #13
JohnFen wrote: post #3

> In other words, even if developers built more two-, three-, and four-bedroom apartments I'm confused. The overwhelming majority of apartments in my state are two and three bedroom ones.

Generally not the case in a lot of HCOL areas. For example in NYC, most new developments are built out something like this: 4 bedrooms - less than 5%, 3 bedrooms - 10%, 2 bedrooms - 30%, 1 bedrooms - 40%, studios - 15%. As a result, the larger units are not just more expensive due to square footage, but the pricing scales non-linearly per square foot because 3+ bedroom units are a rarity. Typically you'll see a 3BR h…

Also to be clear I am talking about condos and therefore sales. Condos can be rented back out, but the majority of large unit buyers are residents not investors.

If you look at rental buildings the skew is far worse. There is a 500 unit rental building that opened near me 5 years ago with apparently no units larger than 2 bedroom. Another one with 325 units shows the same. And finally the most recent 605 unit building with, again, no units above 2 bedroom in size.

To add insult to injury, many rental building 2 bedroom units are really configured for people to split with a roommate rather than house a family.

So to have 3BR+ in the city you need to be wealthy enough to save up down payment money for ownership, and also have income to cover paying both a space and price-per-sq-ft premium.

Re: Why we can’t build family-sized apartments in North America

#43

Post by babypuncher »

paulddraper wrote: post #22

> In other words, even if developers built more two-, three-, and four-bedroom apartments, you probably wouldn’t be able to afford one But almost most apartments are multi-bedroom??? I searched my area on Zillow for Apartments/Condos for rent. [1] Studio - 85 1 bed - 225 2 bed - 233 3 bed - 39 4 bed - 1 https://www.zillow.com/salt-lake-city-ut/rental-buildings/?s...

From your own numbers, I'm counting 310 with 1 bed or less, and 273 with 2 or more beds. Now, I'm not a math professor, but I do believe "most" means "more than half", and I also do believe that 310 is a bigger number than 273.

I also wouldn't consider a 2-bedroom unit "family sized", since even a couple living without kids probably needs to use a bedroom as an office, study, or something else.

Re: Why we can’t build family-sized apartments in North America

#44

Post by tempsy »

America is mostly suburban by choice. Most people do not want to live in an apartment or condo long term if they plan on raising or have a family if they live basically anywhere that isn’t NYC.

I find the YIMBY assumption that everyone wishes every city and town was more NYC to just be untrue. People just want detached houses to be cheaper. Most aren’t dreaming about affording a 3 or 4 bed apartment.

Re: Why we can’t build family-sized apartments in North America

#45

Post by diggan »

varjag wrote: post #32
bouncing wrote: post #2

> In February, I, along with real estate developer Bobby Fijan, went on the Bloomberg podcast Odd Lots to talk about why it’s so hard to find a family-sized apartment in the United States. I argued that North American zoning and building codes work together to drive up the size of multi-bedroom apartments in particular, putting them financially out of reach for many parents raising children. In other words, even if d…

Is this some old building? One egress on above ground floors is many decades since illegal to develop in EU harmonized bulding codes. The only exception I think if there are sprinkler points in the rooms. And TBH you can't really extrapolate your residence in one place to conditions in all of Europe, it is quite different.

> And TBH you can't really extrapolate your residence in one place to conditions in all of Europe, it is quite different.

I'm guessing parent also lives in Lisbon or Oporto, which doesn't exactly extrapolate cleanly to rest of Portugal even.

Re: Why we can’t build family-sized apartments in North America

#46

Post by throwway120385 »

nottorp wrote: post #11
bouncing wrote: post #2

> In February, I, along with real estate developer Bobby Fijan, went on the Bloomberg podcast Odd Lots to talk about why it’s so hard to find a family-sized apartment in the United States. I argued that North American zoning and building codes work together to drive up the size of multi-bedroom apartments in particular, putting them financially out of reach for many parents raising children. In other words, even if d…

> the kitchen has a refrigerator smaller than the one my American best friend uses for beer It's possible that you can walk 5 min to get more beer while he has to drive 30 minutes?

Nothing will drive this point home more than living on an island with a single ferry and no grocery store. You have to stock everything because everything you forget costs you $20 or $40 or more to go pick up.

Re: Why we can’t build family-sized apartments in North America

#47

Post by Izikiel43 »

bluescrn wrote: post #25

'Family' and 'Apartment' are words that don't go very well together. Children/large families can be noisy. And they benefit from safe outdoor space to play. For the childless WFH-er trying to concentrate, it's not much fun when kids noisily use the communal areas of apartment buildings as a playground. I know this from experience. Thankfully, noise-cancelling headphones are pretty good these days.

> 'Family' and 'Apartment' are words that don't go very well together.

In the USA it seems, everywhere else lots of families live in apartments, houses are expensive and/or far away from jobs.

> Children/large families can be noisy.

Yes, they can. You can also get a single neighbor blasting music at ungodly hours.

> they benefit from safe outdoor space to play.

There is this invention called parks, you know about them? It's open space which can be used by anyone.

> For the childless WFH-er trying to concentrate, it's not much fun when kids noisily use the communal areas of apartment buildings as a playground.

Complaint to your hoa or something.

Re: Why we can’t build family-sized apartments in North America

#48

Post by medo-bear »

bluescrn wrote: post #25

'Family' and 'Apartment' are words that don't go very well together. Children/large families can be noisy. And they benefit from safe outdoor space to play. For the childless WFH-er trying to concentrate, it's not much fun when kids noisily use the communal areas of apartment buildings as a playground. I know this from experience. Thankfully, noise-cancelling headphones are pretty good these days.

In my city (Eastern Europe) children (5+) play safely with other children without much adult supervision (none once they start going to school) in the abundant neighborhood playgrounds, surrounded by tall apartment buildings where they live. To me it is a very backward place where this is not deemed safe.

Re: Why we can’t build family-sized apartments in North America

#49

Post by ClumsyPilot »

bouncing wrote: post #2

> In February, I, along with real estate developer Bobby Fijan, went on the Bloomberg podcast Odd Lots to talk about why it’s so hard to find a family-sized apartment in the United States. I argued that North American zoning and building codes work together to drive up the size of multi-bedroom apartments in particular, putting them financially out of reach for many parents raising children. In other words, even if d…

> Just everything in Europe is tiny. T i n y. And frankly, it's not that much cheaper over here either

The real kicker is that price of houses / assets is not attached to physical reality any more.

Financialization drives up the price of real estate. When the financial markets trade real estate, no-one gives a rat's ass if it's a mansion or a shed - the only thing that matters is that number goes up. As was demonstrated in 2008, no-one even knew anything about underlying value of the asset and nobody cared.

In every country in EU number of houses per person has been increasing, and at the same time, prices of houses have been increasing. You cannot build your way out of this.

Real solution to the housing crisis is to reign in financial markets, it's not anything to do with building.

Re: Why we can’t build family-sized apartments in North America

#50

Post by bluGill »

nottorp wrote: post #11
bouncing wrote: post #2

> In February, I, along with real estate developer Bobby Fijan, went on the Bloomberg podcast Odd Lots to talk about why it’s so hard to find a family-sized apartment in the United States. I argued that North American zoning and building codes work together to drive up the size of multi-bedroom apartments in particular, putting them financially out of reach for many parents raising children. In other words, even if d…

> the kitchen has a refrigerator smaller than the one my American best friend uses for beer It's possible that you can walk 5 min to get more beer while he has to drive 30 minutes?

Most people in America can drive for 5 minutes for more beer. If you can't legally drive because of how drunk you are, then most stores won't sell you more beer. People might drive 30 minutes for beer, but that is about either price or selection, not availability. Though many cities have weird laws so some places you can't get beer at all in town, and that would push you to the 30 minute drive. But where I live many people have a separate beer fridge despite being 5 minutes from a store where they can get more.
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