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iPad users will miss out on third-party app stores, browser engines, and more

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Re: iPad users will miss out on third-party app stores, browser engines, and more

#181

Post by rezonant »

throwaway1507 wrote: post #175
rezonant wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This assumes there is one and only one reason to buy an iOS device, and it's because the platform is locked down. But that's not true is it? Is that the one and only reason you like iOS?

No, but it's one of them, and imho a very important one. You recommended I don't use the apps - I recommend you don't use the device. It's not like it's not possible to live without iPhone in Europe.

The magnitude of our recommendations differ quite a lot. The phone is the most important thing in your life. Changing it is very expensive, both in money and in your own time.

Changing which app you use is, in most cases, a far less costly endeavor.

If you were upset that an injustice was occuring where you lived, would you want people to tell you to move to another country?

Re: iPad users will miss out on third-party app stores, browser engines, and more

#182

Post by tomxor »

pbh101 wrote: post #118
tomxor wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a future where there’s an app that requires me to install their store [...] I’m simply not buying that app. Why is it so hard to understand that market pressure will affect you indirectly. Monopolies are harmful to even those who will never step outside Apple's walled garden... The mere threat from the EU, and anti-trust hearings in the US has already benefitted you by reducing the commission from 30% to 17% for ap…

This applies in the other direction too: in this DMA world, at some point perhaps an app I will want will only be available in Meta’s Store and I’ll have to either accept their (maybe ickier) terms or forgo the app, whereas without the DMA I’d have the option to download from Apple’s Store.

You're assuming a developer would have bothered submitting such an app to Apple's store in the first place or hasn't tried to already. The reality right now is that many people just give up because of either Apple arbitrarily banning things for opaque reasons, Apple banning things because they compete with Apple, or because it's not economical enough to be worth the effort (the other effect of high commission rates, not only do users end up paying more for apps that are available, but it causes some apps to never exist).

This also assumes that Apple won't make their store more friendly to developers once they have competition... i.e that app that would have never existed could now exist in Apple's store because they are forced to actually compete. As I said - indirect benefits.

Re: iPad users will miss out on third-party app stores, browser engines, and more

#183

Post by fvvybfbfbyg »

kmlx wrote: post #171
addicted wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine if MS had done the shit Apple is doing and blocked iTunes from Windows because it didn’t “add enough new functionality”. And then when it eventually did allow a gimped version of iTunes charged Apple 30% of all the music and movies sold on it. If they were being Apple like they would probably have even started charging 20% of the album price of every music CD users ripped to their iPods using iTunes. And MS w…

what monopoly does apple have? not for smartphones: https://www.counterpointresearch.com/insights/global-smartph... not for macs: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_share_of_personal_compu... not for operating systems: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_syste... not for web browsers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_web_browsers

Global market share hardly matters though. UN isn’t regulated monopolies national agencies/EU are. Not that it should matter it’s still an oligopoly which is not that different

Re: iPad users will miss out on third-party app stores, browser engines, and more

#184

Post by throwaway1507 »

rezonant wrote: post #181
throwaway1507 wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, but it's one of them, and imho a very important one. You recommended I don't use the apps - I recommend you don't use the device. It's not like it's not possible to live without iPhone in Europe.

The magnitude of our recommendations differ quite a lot. The phone is the most important thing in your life. Changing it is very expensive, both in money and in your own time. Changing which app you use is, in most cases, a far less costly endeavor. If you were upset that an injustice was occuring where you lived, would you want people to tell you to move to another country?

So why did these people buy the device in the first place? They knew what they were getting into. Why do they have to break it for the ones who actually wanted it?

Re: iPad users will miss out on third-party app stores, browser engines, and more

#185

Post by antifa »

spiderice wrote: post #100
RoyalHenOil wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I bought an iPad and an Apple Pencil for drawing. If I could have bought the same hardware with the same functionality, but not Apple, I absolutely would have. It's not because I hate Apple products (I happily use Macintoshes), but because the system is too closed. I overwhelmingly prefer Android, Microsoft, and macOS to iPadOS -- primarily because I can get a browser I like on them, but not on my iPad. If I didn't u…

You forgot the final line of your argument: “…so we should use the government to force people to build that product I just dreamt up, rather than the one they want to build.”

I doubt the actual programmers feel like they're building the product they want to build, these details are dictated down from the top.

Re: iPad users will miss out on third-party app stores, browser engines, and more

#186

Post by everforward »

makeitdouble wrote: post #53
rezonant wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As sibling points out, it's about what the EU thinks. "iPadOS" runs iOS apps, and iOS apps can be full fledged "iPadOS" apps with a single binary. The distinction is a business distinction, not a technical one. There are strange tiny differences in what APIs are offered, but the same is true of two Windows computers, for example, for one that has a DirectX capable graphics card and one that does not.

I had the same reaction at first. It looks like and probably is an obvious tactic to evade the DMA. But then, if we look at Debian and Ubuntu for instance, we'd agree they're different even if there will be compatibility. I think Apple should be allowed to set each of their stores and OSes as separate but compatible entities. And I also think scrutiny should be applied not on an OS base but on a more generic "platfor…

> But then, if we look at Debian and Ubuntu for instance, we'd agree they're different even if there will be compatibility.

They're separate organizations, which largely precludes it being an effort to avoid the DMA barring some cartel-like behavior.

I think it's going to hinge heavily on their usage of the term "platform". Debian and Ubuntu are both undeniably the same operating system under a technical definition of OS. They both run Linux, which is the OS. They differentiate themselves in userspace, which is not part of the OS.

I don't care for the usage of the term "platform" because it's unclear what makes a "platform". It feels like something that will be arbitrarily applied when convenient.

Re: iPad users will miss out on third-party app stores, browser engines, and more

#187

Post by RoyalHenOil »

pbh101 wrote: post #125
RoyalHenOil wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I bought an iPad and an Apple Pencil for drawing. If I could have bought the same hardware with the same functionality, but not Apple, I absolutely would have. It's not because I hate Apple products (I happily use Macintoshes), but because the system is too closed. I overwhelmingly prefer Android, Microsoft, and macOS to iPadOS -- primarily because I can get a browser I like on them, but not on my iPad. If I didn't u…

I don’t think I’ve ever felt upset at mobile Safari’s browser engine. What am I missing?

I strongly prefer Safari and their plugin offerings (especially uBlock Origin).

Re: iPad users will miss out on third-party app stores, browser engines, and more

#188

Post by RoyalHenOil »

pbh101 wrote: post #121
RoyalHenOil wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>and then only publish GMail and WhatsApp/FBMessenger to their app store This is clearly anti-competitive behavior. It is equally bad whether it's Apple, Google, Facebook, Microsoft, or anyone else doing it.

I don’t see any restrictions on these app developers requiring them to publish to multiple stores or the App Store. In fact, only publishing an app to an alternative store seems to be the point of much of this.

The DMA (the legislation that Apple is being forced to comply with in the EU) is specifically intended to stop this kind of gatekeeping behavior by big tech companies. Apple is not the only company coming under fire: Google, Microsoft, Facebook, and others are also being targeted.

Re: iPad users will miss out on third-party app stores, browser engines, and more

#189

Post by [deleted] »

ToucanLoucan wrote: post #139
eptcyka wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I want a Firefox that doesn't suck badly.

This is the thing I see mentioned more than anything else, but wouldn't this require Firefox organizationally to completely rebuild the Quantum engine on native iOS code for you to actually see any benefit?

[deleted]

Re: iPad users will miss out on third-party app stores, browser engines, and more

#190

Post by dehrmann »

addicted wrote: post #164
dehrmann wrote: post #57

Apple's really been acting in bad faith with moves like this and the 27% fee on external payments. Regulators took these actions for a reason, and Apple's doing its best to just barely comply, at the cost of bringing even more attention to itself.

The Apple apologia anti regulation response to this comment is ironic because without anti monopoly protections Apple wouldn’t even exist right now. Microsoft bailed out Apple with an investment entirely because of anti monopoly regulations. More importantly, MS kept producing versions of Office and even Internet Explorer IIRC that allowed the Mac to remain an option because of their fear of being regulation. Then af…

> allowed the web to become an open platform

Not disputing anything you're saying, but in hindsight, the web as an open platform was only viable from ~2005-2010 in the window where most people had at-home broadband, but smart phones hadn't taken over.

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