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iPad users will miss out on third-party app stores, browser engines, and more

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Re: iPad users will miss out on third-party app stores, browser engines, and more

#121

Post by pbh101 »

RoyalHenOil wrote: post #112
hayst4ck wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine if Apple tried to implement privacy labels in a multi app store world. Rather than complying with an action that benefits the consumer, Google and Facebook could work together to create an app store that doesn't require privacy labels and then only publish GMail and WhatsApp/FBMessenger to their app store , forcing me to download and use their app store or not use my e-mail or standard means of communicating…

>and then only publish GMail and WhatsApp/FBMessenger to their app store This is clearly anti-competitive behavior. It is equally bad whether it's Apple, Google, Facebook, Microsoft, or anyone else doing it.

I don’t see any restrictions on these app developers requiring them to publish to multiple stores or the App Store. In fact, only publishing an app to an alternative store seems to be the point of much of this.

Re: iPad users will miss out on third-party app stores, browser engines, and more

#122

Post by pbh101 »

ankurdhama wrote: post #92
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We know it will because we remember what life was like before. Sucky platforms that were never good enough, always some weird piece of software that you thought was benign gunking up your system. It really did suck. And then…most of the problems were gone and things just worked. I’m ok if this is actually all optional, but I don’t think the anti-Apple crowd is going to be content until iOS is just another Windows. Th…

Why do people think that iOS will become like Windows when we all know that iOS (and Android) were designed with app sandboxing from start and not like Windows where a program can do anything it wants to.

EU could decide next that app sandboxing is anticompetitive restrictive gatekeeper behavior and force Apple to change that too. It too violates the ‘it is my hardware let me do what I want’ ethos expressed in this comment section.

Re: iPad users will miss out on third-party app stores, browser engines, and more

#123

Post by pbh101 »

ephemeral-life wrote: post #107
spiderice wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea that iOS has been a negative for developers is a hilarious one. Funny that all those poor developers choose to develop on iOS before android because that’s where the money is.

Is it though? Before the iphone desktops were king. On desktops - developers could use any programming language and there was a standard language that was well supported on pretty much all systems (C), so no need to learn 4 different language ecosystems to target different platforms if you arent a language nerd. - you could release your software to users under any licence you see fit. - Software SDK's billed with fla…

Maybe that which is best for a mobile computing platform is different than a desktop one. I like my iOS and macOS each in their respective place today.

Re: iPad users will miss out on third-party app stores, browser engines, and more

#124

Post by pbh101 »

jchw wrote: post #85
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can go out and buy a windows machine if I want. Or a windows mobile phone back in the day, or an android phone today. There are so many alternatives to Apple products that if I wanted that kind of platform, it already exists and can be chosen! For Android…in China the play store basically doesn’t even exist, so phones with non-play stores aren’t rare at all. So you basically want to force your preferences on me, an…

I just want to know: What choice do you think I'm trying to force on you? This argument only works if you force this into an us-vs-them dichotomy, but I'm an Apple customer that owns multiple Apple products, so this thing where some outgroup is trying to piss on Apple's parade is a delusion. But even ignoring that, do you think I'm trying to force Apple to force you to install Firefox? Because I'm not, and I'd love t…

How long until ‘this app only works on browser X’ on mobile that is only available via a third party store? Not impossible. We’ve been spared that so far but happens frequently on desktop Safari even today.

Re: iPad users will miss out on third-party app stores, browser engines, and more

#125

Post by pbh101 »

RoyalHenOil wrote: post #94
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or a worse experience? I mean android phones and tablets are already something you can buy, people still buy Apple products despite that. > It's not my intention to poison the well, but Apple feels like treating its customers like cattle A lot of remember how the computing world was before, the Wild West that the EU is trying to make the only option. We aren’t eager to return to that, and would make different platfor…

I bought an iPad and an Apple Pencil for drawing. If I could have bought the same hardware with the same functionality, but not Apple, I absolutely would have. It's not because I hate Apple products (I happily use Macintoshes), but because the system is too closed. I overwhelmingly prefer Android, Microsoft, and macOS to iPadOS -- primarily because I can get a browser I like on them, but not on my iPad. If I didn't u…

I don’t think I’ve ever felt upset at mobile Safari’s browser engine. What am I missing?

Re: iPad users will miss out on third-party app stores, browser engines, and more

#126

Post by dns_snek »

floydnoel wrote: post #66
JoshTriplett wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And if that turns out to be the case, then it doesn't need to be enforced, as people will select accordingly. And then, the people who do want to run things that Apple won't permit in the app store (browsers/emulators/JITs/scripting/etc), or that aren't economically viable with a 30% cut, will have the option of doing so. The existence of an option does not force you to choose that option.

until there's another pandemic, and your local government decides everyone has to install their tracking app. or any number of situations where users will be pressured by institutions they don’t have any control over.

You're not supposed to say the quiet part out loud. Suggesting that we should rely on a for-profit corporation to "save us" from democratically-elected officials is such an extreme idea I'm surprised it's being voiced so openly.

I say this as someone who strongly opposed any kind of mandatory apps.

Re: iPad users will miss out on third-party app stores, browser engines, and more

#127

Post by londons_explore »

realusername wrote: post #98
bdcravens wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Choice is good, though I can't help but wonder what % of European customers will start getting their applications from third-parties. In 12 or so years of on-again, off-again usage of Android (usually as a secondary phone), I've sideloaded one app: a pre-release game that I happily pulled down from the official channel once it went "official"

Side loading on Android is just a legal argument in courts, its made too complicated for normal users to use it.

Amongst my non-tech-savvy friends, most people have a few sideloaded apps.

Usually hacked apps to remove ads or give them premium features or all power ups for free.

Or sometimes malware that wouldn't pass store review.

Re: iPad users will miss out on third-party app stores, browser engines, and more

#128

Post by huytersd »

HumblyTossed wrote: post #67
huytersd wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We’ll see. I feel like it’s going to be a good Petri dish to see how shitty the third party stuff makes the Apple ecosystem.

Weird. How would it? You don’t have to buy anything except from the Apple Store if you don’t want to.

I think you’ll see all large apps that don’t want to pay Apple their fee pull out to their own app servers. Epic, Facebook, Google etc.

Re: iPad users will miss out on third-party app stores, browser engines, and more

#129

Post by jchw »

pbh101 wrote: post #124
jchw wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just want to know: What choice do you think I'm trying to force on you? This argument only works if you force this into an us-vs-them dichotomy, but I'm an Apple customer that owns multiple Apple products, so this thing where some outgroup is trying to piss on Apple's parade is a delusion. But even ignoring that, do you think I'm trying to force Apple to force you to install Firefox? Because I'm not, and I'd love t…

How long until ‘this app only works on browser X’ on mobile that is only available via a third party store? Not impossible. We’ve been spared that so far but happens frequently on desktop Safari even today.

I have an iPad and there's plenty of stuff I literally can't do with Safari on it right now. However, it's not everyone else's fault. Yes, some websites are stupid and do UA checking and intentionally block people on some browsers, but none of those websites are the problem, as all of those sites are not going to give up a vast quantity of iPad users even after Chrome and Firefox become available. It's not like macOS because iOS is not a minority in the world of smartphones, and iPadOS is definitely not a minority in the world of tablets. It's not like Internet Explorer or Edge because it doesn't suck shit through a straw.

The websites that are actually a problem? The ones that don't care. The ones that really could not give a shit less if it runs on your stupid iPad or not. Those are the websites that you can't use on iPadOS. And while the top 500 most popular websites are never going to act this way, this mentality is more widespread than you think. They do not care, and will not care, that Apple doesn't let you run an alternative browser on your tablet. Therefore, you simply miss out.

In addition, some web apps will just not be able to have good support on Safari because Safari just generally takes longer on standards. So instead, you will just not see support for Apple mobile browsers at all. Again, you come upon it a lot. It's not out of malice for iOS users, its that Safari just isn't as good at keeping up with web standards as Firefox and Chrome are. And yes, a lot of web standards suck, but a lot of them also don't and are made to resolve real problems with the web app platform, and look, if Apple's argument that you don't need sideloading is "just make webapps", then I think it's only fair to say that it's not a very good option when they have such inferior support for the standards that people are making to make better and faster webapps.

Apple's influence on web standards has always felt petty. They're the only company that has the specific kind of influence that they do because users can't simply opt to use an alternate browser; they compete in a totally different way than almost every other browser. They should have to compete on a level playing field. I reckon that suddenly, WebMs will start playing on iOS and iPadOS.

Re: iPad users will miss out on third-party app stores, browser engines, and more

#130

Post by jchw »

pharmakom wrote: post #109
jchw wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason iPad is good is not because you're not allowed to choose what browser engine to use. It's, largely, because the hardware is simply better than anything else on the market. I think it is amusing that there is a contingent of Apple fans that actually believe the platform will get significantly worse because people are allowed to sideload and install browsers that have their own browser engines. I think this…

The hardware is better because of RnD, funded by high margins due to software lock-in. Not sure why people struggle to see the connection here.

Nobody "struggles" to see something that you literally made up. The original iPhone and iPad were literally global news and that happened before they ever did anything like this.

I am sure it made them a rich company, but they were going to be rich anyways. They also hoard money like fucking crazy, so it's not like it's all getting spent on R&D.

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