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ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

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Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#771

Post by nerpderp82 »

Symbiote wrote: post #631
kar5pt wrote: post #454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you read through their case? It's pretty weak in my opinion. They seem to think that any war with a high number of casualties and insufficient humanitarian aid counts as genocide. By their standard the US committed "genocide" against Japan in WW2, arguably Germany too.

> By their standard the US committed "genocide" against Japan in WW2, arguably Germany too. Germany, yes? That's the primary example of genocide in the 20th century. "The Holocaust was the genocide of European Jews during World War II." (First sentence of Wikipedia.) (I think widespread bombing of cities is a different crime.)

[flagged]

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#772

Post by bart_spoon »

hayst4ck wrote: post #603
RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #479

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The law of retaliation is a never-ending cycle How many wars have the US and Japan fought after WWII? Or France and Germany after WWII? How many wars have the US Government and Native Americans fought after 1900? Sometimes a clear, overwhelming victory ends cycles of violence.

No. The fundamental flaw in this reasoning is the assumption that overwhelming victory is what established the current world order. Rebuilding Europe via the Marshall plan, which involved humanization of individuals who fought on behalf of evil, is why there is peace in Europe. Likewise, the US reconstruction of Japan is why the US and Japan are at peace. The US held the position of power and chose not to exercise it…

The Marshall plan was only enacted after Germany and Japan had been reduced to rubble, had millions of their civilian population killed through indiscriminate bombing, including the use of two atom bombs, occupied, submit to total surrender, the entirety of their command structure executed, and their governments dismantled and replaced by the Allies.

I think you are skipping over quite a bit of human bloodshed and strife to get to the Marshall Plan.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#773

Post by avmich »

skybrian wrote: post #751
pgeorgi wrote: post #474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All correct and yet, what should happen? Israel stops their campaign. And then? Spend tons of money on iron dome to shoot down the rockets and hope that Hamas won't manage to conduct another massacre, even if "only" half the scope of October 7? This mess features not one but two parties who currently reject the concept of a cease fire.

While I'm not a military expert, I think it would be reasonable to rule out the possibility of a similar massacre any time soon, for decades at least. It seems unlikely that Hamas would get away with it a second time? They put everything into a one-day surprise attack. The Israeli defense was caught unprepared despite being warned, but they have much more power and they can learn. What happens in the wider conflict (…

Hamas doesn't get away from it this time already.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#774

Post by nerpderp82 »

nojvek wrote: post #770
tda wrote: post #485

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not so sure. I believe Israel only exists by the mercy of support from their Allies. The minute they lose that support Israel is doomed. The country is surrounded by enemies on all sides. Sure their military could win a conventional war with their nukes against any of their neighbors. But on the long term a small country with a small population and limited natural resources needs friends to run an economy big en…

Israel seems to be optimizing for the short win at the cost of losing who they are. Granted Hamas attacked them first but their actions give Jews worldwide a bad rep.

What is nuts is that the Zionists have convinced everyone that that they speak for all Jews. I have so much respect for the activists in Israel that must face immense social and political pressure.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#775

Post by avmich »

bart_spoon wrote: post #761
Aeolun wrote: post #684

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All correct and yet, what should happen? Happy, fed, employed people do not become terrorists. They have too much to lose.

That is certainly not true. Exhibit A: Osama bin Laden’s father was literally a multi-billionaire and he himself inherited $30-50 million.

He's not "people", he's a "human". One human could be significantly off from the expected behavior; many people are less so.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#776

Post by avmich »

HDThoreaun wrote: post #710
Aeolun wrote: post #684

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All correct and yet, what should happen? Happy, fed, employed people do not become terrorists. They have too much to lose.

Too bad gaza has no land or economy to feed and employ themselves.

Doesn't mean they can't build it.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#777

Post by consumer451 »

krainboltgreene wrote: post #649
locallost wrote: post #537

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I knew the answer to that question I would be a high ranked politician. But for me it's important to keep in mind what he is saying here and also in another part explicitly: a diplomatic solution is possible and history proves that. So what I can do is reject the notion that what is happening is unavoidable.

> If I knew the answer to that question I would be a high ranked politician The solution is simple, avoiding the solution in order to create a western military power ally in the middle east is what high ranked politicians do.

> The solution is simple

Please explain.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#778

Post by surume »

riscy wrote: post #720
surume wrote: post #263

Hi All, I am a combat soldier and commander in the IDF currently fighting in Gaza. We are not committing any genocide. The give away for Genocide is that there are mass graves, which in Gaza there are not. Yes there is collateral damage because Hamas uses civilians as human shields, so we have no choice but to kill them too, but we do not specifically target them. We risk ourselves and our soldiers to ensure that the…

> The give away for Genocide is that there are mass graves, which in Gaza there are not. The rubble of the numerous civilian homes and buildings you've leveled are the mass graves.

Nope. Those are just buildings. Without people, they are just structures. Again, if Hamas was firing at us from behind civilians (which they do a lot), then we had no choice. You can't just call anything a mass grave for the sake of convenience.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#779

Post by reissbaker »

SirSavary wrote: post #768
reissbaker wrote: post #756

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not the approach the West took with ISIS, which involved similarly one-sided fights against terrorist forces [1], nor do I think it's an approach that would have worked. When "everyone who wants peace" doesn't include the people in control of the guns and rockets, who instead want to kill their enemies by any means necessary (and themselves do not respect international law), you can't simply dialogue your way…

Note: ISIS was a bunch of European guys who got radicalized and then travelled to the middle east; Hamas is homegrown and was democratically elected by the people of the region.

No, ISIS wasn't "a bunch of European guys who got radicalized": https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_State

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#780

Post by surume »

bitcurious wrote: post #682
surume wrote: post #263

Hi All, I am a combat soldier and commander in the IDF currently fighting in Gaza. We are not committing any genocide. The give away for Genocide is that there are mass graves, which in Gaza there are not. Yes there is collateral damage because Hamas uses civilians as human shields, so we have no choice but to kill them too, but we do not specifically target them. We risk ourselves and our soldiers to ensure that the…

>Personally, as a commander, I would like to say that I have no ill feelings towards the Palestinian people, but we need to get as many of the hostages back as possible, and we cannot allow Hamas to continue ruling Gaza and attacking our civilians as they did on October 7th. I'm curious about this - the idea that both goals are achievable is a fiction. You either get the hostages, or you eliminate Hamas. Do y'all tal…

Why can't we do both? We talk about it a lot. Until now, we have not succeeded, but maybe we can pressure Hamas to let them go, and then eliminate Hamas in a future round of fighting?
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