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ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

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Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#761

Post by bart_spoon »

Aeolun wrote: post #684
pgeorgi wrote: post #474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All correct and yet, what should happen? Israel stops their campaign. And then? Spend tons of money on iron dome to shoot down the rockets and hope that Hamas won't manage to conduct another massacre, even if "only" half the scope of October 7? This mess features not one but two parties who currently reject the concept of a cease fire.

> All correct and yet, what should happen? Happy, fed, employed people do not become terrorists. They have too much to lose.

That is certainly not true. Exhibit A: Osama bin Laden’s father was literally a multi-billionaire and he himself inherited $30-50 million.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#762

Post by amluto »

reissbaker wrote: post #756
anon84873628 wrote: post #585

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>All correct and yet, what should happen? Israel stops their campaign. And then? And then everyone who wants peace invests lots of money and expertise over a long time to build a modern, prosperous, stable Palestinian society, despite whatever setbacks, attacks, and sabotage occur from within and without. The only way to have peace is to give people a better option than becoming terrorists.

This is not the approach the West took with ISIS, which involved similarly one-sided fights against terrorist forces [1], nor do I think it's an approach that would have worked. When "everyone who wants peace" doesn't include the people in control of the guns and rockets, who instead want to kill their enemies by any means necessary (and themselves do not respect international law), you can't simply dialogue your way…

A major problem is that the Gazan people have very legitimate problems with Israel, and this leads to a situation in which enough of them become militant to cause serious problems. Solving that seems like it needs a more wholistic approach than simply trying to get rid of the militants at the cost of causing everyone else to have an even bigger beef with Israel.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#763

Post by xdennis »

nashashmi wrote: post #310
bawolff wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what i understand, the ceasefire was an extreme long shot by south africa and nobody really expected the icj to grant it. Particularly because the court cant order hamas to do anything and a one sided cease fire seems kind of unreasonable, but also the right to self defense is pretty fundamental in international law.

Is ICJ even able to order a ceasefire? ICJ did not recognize the activities of Israel as the right to self defense. ICJ would have recognized the activities of rebel force against the genocide as the right to self defense, but I don't think that is a question that came up.

[flagged]

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#764

Post by frob »

surume wrote: post #333
tomp wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi there, I personally admire the work you do, I fully support Israel in it's war against evil, I hope you eradicate Hamas (ideally they would all surrender, but that's unlikely, so the other option is they get killed) as soon as you can. If you doubt any of these words, check out my tweets/likes (@tomprimozic) However, there's 3 "contentious" points that I want to ask (my go-to Jewish (& very pro-Israel) close frien…

Thank you for the kind words. Will reach out when I get home next. Been a long day - we did a big mission today and I'm wiped so please excuse the short answers. 1. Hamas was located in a significant want under Al-shifa. Israel released video of our commando unit raiding it. You can find that video online. Hard to watch. 2. Because they're angry and they're being stupid and reacting emotionally. Please understand, th…

> so we are not "occupying" their land because there is no "them".

And that, right there, is a genocidal mindset.

A huge goal of genocide is destroying the identity of a people. This is going to the next step. This is denying they exist at all.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#765

Post by int_19h »

w0mbat wrote: post #610
hypeit wrote: post #477

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Israel must face the reality that is an apartheid state that exists on occupied land. There is no solution until that happens. Just like apartheid South Africa was dismantled, Israel has to face the same fate or forever be locked into warfare and oppressing Palestinians.

[flagged]

"Everybody else in the region" is mostly descendants of various Semitic peoples who lived in that area for just as long. Palestinians in particular seem to be related to Canaanites, which - if you take the Torah at face value - would actually make them the indigenous people that were a target of genocidal conquest by the original Jewish settlers in the area (although archeologists say that this was more likely intra-ethnic warfare between different groups, and the whole notion of Canaanites as distinct peoples was created to justify the conquest of neighbors).

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#766

Post by dang »

Timber-6539 wrote: post #748
dang wrote: post #737

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please don't post like this. It's against the intention of this site and especially against the intended spirit I tried to describe at the top of the thread.

[flagged]

I've been posting similar admonishments to commenters on all sides of this argument when they cross the line into flamewar. Your comments in this thread have clearly been doing that, and not only the comment I replied to.

It's common for people with strong feelings on a topic to feel like the mods must be biased against them and secretly in favor of the other side (https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...). Meanwhile the other side(s) feel exactly the same way. These perceptions feel convincing, but you can't trust them—they're a product of some kind of hard-wiring that we all seem to share, especially when our emotions get engaged.

Any fair minded person who slogs their way through my moderation posts in this thread, and any similar thread, is going to see how hard we try to be even-handed, apply HN's rules fairly, and so on. Not that we always get it right, of course.

By the way, if you see a post that ought to have been moderated but hasn't been, the likeliest explanation is that we didn't see it. There is far too much content on HN, or even in a large thread like this one, for us to read it all. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu... You can help by flagging it or emailing us at hn@ycombinator.com.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#767

Post by nojvek »

AzzyHN wrote: post #723

What would happen if they did order a ceasefire? Who would enforce this?

I feel this is where the world is seeing the failure of US.

When US have Ukraine weapons to defend themselves, we were the good guys.

When US gives Israel the weapons to attack and airbomb Palestinians in daylight it puts US in a very bad light.

US should be the ones enforcing a cease fire. Where no side gets to airbomb each other.

Every life is valuable. Israelis or Palestinians.

The failure of US policy is to be the gatekeeper of world peace. We have the largest army by far. We spend an obscene amount of our taxes on defense.

Yet we failed to keep peace.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#768

Post by SirSavary »

reissbaker wrote: post #756
anon84873628 wrote: post #585

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>All correct and yet, what should happen? Israel stops their campaign. And then? And then everyone who wants peace invests lots of money and expertise over a long time to build a modern, prosperous, stable Palestinian society, despite whatever setbacks, attacks, and sabotage occur from within and without. The only way to have peace is to give people a better option than becoming terrorists.

This is not the approach the West took with ISIS, which involved similarly one-sided fights against terrorist forces [1], nor do I think it's an approach that would have worked. When "everyone who wants peace" doesn't include the people in control of the guns and rockets, who instead want to kill their enemies by any means necessary (and themselves do not respect international law), you can't simply dialogue your way…

Note: ISIS was a bunch of European guys who got radicalized and then travelled to the middle east; Hamas is homegrown and was democratically elected by the people of the region.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#769

Post by Qem »

throwaway421967 wrote: post #621
ajb wrote: post #36

The actual rulings can be found at https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192... and a summary is: https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192... Dissents etc can be found in the case page: https://www.icj-cij.org/case/192 - in particular the opinion of Judge Aharon Barak, the Israeli ad-hoc Judge (a peculiarity of the ICJ is that each side gets to add a judge, but it doesn't have m…

Since the comment that I replied to was flagged, I'm posting this here because it is simply a statement of facts. - Judge Barak's numbers on civilian deaths on 7th october are simply wrong and could've been easily checked. 766 civilians were killed, 1200 was the total number of deaths (including armed forces). - Israel's own numbers say "2 civilians killed for every one militant"[1], that's 66% in the Gaza offensive.…

Regarding the people that died on October 7, one important detail is evidence surfaced it appears a sizeable fraction was killed due to Israeli military attacking militants and hostages without distinction, to avoid capture, following the so called Hannibal directive:

https://thecradle.co/articles/israeli-army-ordered-mass-hann...

https://thegrayzone.com/2023/11/25/israels-october-7-propaga...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannibal_Directive

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#770

Post by nojvek »

tda wrote: post #485
Aunche wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am so deeply disappointed in the Biden administration here. What do you expect him to do? With or without any assistance, Israel has more than enough weapons completely annihilate Gaza. Don't forget that they likely have nuclear capabilities. Israel believes they are demonstrating restraint and this restraint is the first thing to go if Israel feels like it's being backed into a corner.

I am not so sure. I believe Israel only exists by the mercy of support from their Allies. The minute they lose that support Israel is doomed. The country is surrounded by enemies on all sides. Sure their military could win a conventional war with their nukes against any of their neighbors. But on the long term a small country with a small population and limited natural resources needs friends to run an economy big en…

Israel seems to be optimizing for the short win at the cost of losing who they are.

Granted Hamas attacked them first but their actions give Jews worldwide a bad rep.

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