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ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

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Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#751

Post by skybrian »

pgeorgi wrote: post #474
locallost wrote: post #466

My views on the situation aside, the clearest I saw anyone communicate the issues from a global angle was the former French prime minister Dominique de Villepin Translated here: https://twitter.com/RnaudBertrand/status/1718201487132885246 Viewed from the angle of the West, I think the message it needs to avoid isolating itself from the world is very unusual for Western media and important. Quote: "Westerners must ope…

All correct and yet, what should happen? Israel stops their campaign. And then? Spend tons of money on iron dome to shoot down the rockets and hope that Hamas won't manage to conduct another massacre, even if "only" half the scope of October 7? This mess features not one but two parties who currently reject the concept of a cease fire.

While I'm not a military expert, I think it would be reasonable to rule out the possibility of a similar massacre any time soon, for decades at least. It seems unlikely that Hamas would get away with it a second time? They put everything into a one-day surprise attack. The Israeli defense was caught unprepared despite being warned, but they have much more power and they can learn.

What happens in the wider conflict (with other Iran-backed militias) is another question.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#752

Post by lyngdng »

dang wrote: post #742
hnu234 wrote: post #738

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

We've banned this account for repeatedly posting flamewar comments (not just in this thread but in many others). That's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for. It's especially in violation of the intended spirit that I tried to explain at the top of the current thread. Please don't create accounts to break HN's rules with.

[flagged]

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#753

Post by xdennis »

anon84873628 wrote: post #585
pgeorgi wrote: post #474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All correct and yet, what should happen? Israel stops their campaign. And then? Spend tons of money on iron dome to shoot down the rockets and hope that Hamas won't manage to conduct another massacre, even if "only" half the scope of October 7? This mess features not one but two parties who currently reject the concept of a cease fire.

>All correct and yet, what should happen? Israel stops their campaign. And then? And then everyone who wants peace invests lots of money and expertise over a long time to build a modern, prosperous, stable Palestinian society, despite whatever setbacks, attacks, and sabotage occur from within and without. The only way to have peace is to give people a better option than becoming terrorists.

> And then everyone who wants peace invests lots of money and expertise over a long time to build a modern, prosperous, stable Palestinian society

When Israel left Gaza in 2005 it had no blockade and an airport. Israel blockaded them and bombed their airport because they kept using everything to attack Israel.

If Gaza and the West Bank were given complete independence with no interference, what makes you think it will turn out different and they won't use the open borders to bring in weapons to attack Israel?

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#754

Post by CapricornNoble »

MeImCounting wrote: post #554
aaomidi wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure what I will do, but I'm not voting for Trump either way. There is a lot written about civil disobedience through not partaking in electoral politics, and that's _likely_ the direction I'm going to go if Biden does not change his tone (and hopefully actually do a proper apology for his actions so far). This sucks, and I'll participate in local and even congressional elections, but for president I can not…

Personally regardless of any other stance I will always vote along the abortion lines. I would hope others would be able to prioritize that as well. I dont want to see the US turn into a theocratic dictatorship.

Abortion is probably one of the leading causes of the demographic destruction (and by extension, destruction of political influence) of the black American community.

https://azcapitoltimes.com/news/2020/02/25/abortion-the-over...

Not only religious fanatics oppose it in its current form in America.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#755

Post by megous »

shepherdjerred wrote: post #395
hypeit wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like the parent says, these have all been widely reported on. I think we have to come into this conversation with a base level of the events that are going on before commenting.

This was a very unhelpful response to someone trying to understand another's viewpoint.

It's ~20k women and children killed/missing(presumed killed) at this point. There's no shortage of any kind of attrocities against civilians to be found online.

You can find anything from driving tanks over families with children, crushing them to death, and surviving children describing the ordeal, to videos of 9 year old being executed by a shot to the head in the street, to teenagers throwing fireworks and being shot and then finished off while laying on the ground. (in the west bank, even)

As for shooting people holding white flags, even CNN did a feature on that.

https://www.cnn.com/2024/01/26/middleeast/hala-khreis-white-...

Or the story of the church lady:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/family-remembers-cheris...

And there's an interview with the son somewhere (the person that is seen running to the woman in the end). I lost the link already, since there's a constant stream of new attrocities on Telegram, and there's no point keeping up.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#756

Post by reissbaker »

anon84873628 wrote: post #585
pgeorgi wrote: post #474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All correct and yet, what should happen? Israel stops their campaign. And then? Spend tons of money on iron dome to shoot down the rockets and hope that Hamas won't manage to conduct another massacre, even if "only" half the scope of October 7? This mess features not one but two parties who currently reject the concept of a cease fire.

>All correct and yet, what should happen? Israel stops their campaign. And then? And then everyone who wants peace invests lots of money and expertise over a long time to build a modern, prosperous, stable Palestinian society, despite whatever setbacks, attacks, and sabotage occur from within and without. The only way to have peace is to give people a better option than becoming terrorists.

This is not the approach the West took with ISIS, which involved similarly one-sided fights against terrorist forces [1], nor do I think it's an approach that would have worked. When "everyone who wants peace" doesn't include the people in control of the guns and rockets, who instead want to kill their enemies by any means necessary (and themselves do not respect international law), you can't simply dialogue your way out of it any more than Ukraine could have dialogued their way out of getting invaded by Russia.

The ICJ ruled that Hamas return the hostages unconditionally, but everyone knows that won't happen — Hamas is simply unaccountable. "Everyone who wants peace" can't even get the Red Cross access to the hostages, let alone get them returned. Vague calls for diplomacy with terrorist groups doesn't solve much, which is why people are asking you for specific solutions — it's easy to say Israel should stop fighting, but then: what should it do? How would you actually ensure it doesn't keep getting attacked, repeatedly, as Hamas continues to insist they plan to do?

1: Mosul alone had ~10,000 civilian casualties and that was less densely populated than Gaza City and didn't have tunnels: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/show/thousands-more-civilia...

And it similarly had about 1MM civilians displaced: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/06/world/middleeast/mosul-ir...

And that wasn't the end of the fight against ISIS!

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#757

Post by bart_spoon »

nojvek wrote: post #637
mderazon wrote: post #630

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is looking at the conflict from western eyes. Religious fundamentalists don't think like that

We could have said this about Germany and Japan after WWII. Every human no matter their race and religion cares about having food, water, safety, opportunity, live in a law abiding society where their rights are respected and they get “some” choice to vote for their future.

Germany was reduced to rubble, their population submitted to complete and total surrender, and their leaders were all executed. Japan was firebombed into oblivion and then had two atomic bombs dropped on their civilian population. And both were then completely occupied and had their government dismantled and replaced by their conquerors.

What Israel is doing right now seems to be far closer to what happened in Germany and Japan after WW2 than whatever diplomatic solution you are proposing.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#758

Post by maroonblazer »

Aeolun wrote: post #684
pgeorgi wrote: post #474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All correct and yet, what should happen? Israel stops their campaign. And then? Spend tons of money on iron dome to shoot down the rockets and hope that Hamas won't manage to conduct another massacre, even if "only" half the scope of October 7? This mess features not one but two parties who currently reject the concept of a cease fire.

> All correct and yet, what should happen? Happy, fed, employed people do not become terrorists. They have too much to lose.

Not if they have more to gain in 'heaven'. Remember, Hamas are religious fanatics.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#759

Post by avmich »

int_19h wrote: post #750
xdennis wrote: post #743

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

When Brits were firebombing German cities, that had very little to do with freeing anyone from anything. Even at the time it was recognized by many as an act of revenge, and it's hard to not take the same impression from how Israel is conducting itself in Gaza, especially given some telling remarks from Israeli leadership.

It's interesting that we keep quite a critical view of modern politicians, yet when discussing on the field interactions we assume that armies of people, all like one, follow the bloodthirsty orders from commanders above.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#760

Post by ofirg »

YZF wrote: post #460
shmatt wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Barak is no fan of the current Israeli government. And they often attacked him publicly and organized demonstrations around his home. They truly sent the best international law expert the country has to offer

This is more nuanced. Some people in the government respect Barak. I don't know that Barak is active in politics (I haven't really heard him opine on the current government, but one can imagine he's not a fan). The more extreme parties in the government resent/oppose Barak. The "government" doesn't attack Barak or protest against him but certainly some (extreme/right-wing) political factions in Israel blame him for m…

Barak very recently (under 1 year) and strongly attacked the governments legal reform plans
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