Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

apnews.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

571–580 of 1001 posts

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#571

Post by gizmo »

lacker wrote: post #520
hypeit wrote: post #477

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Israel must face the reality that is an apartheid state that exists on occupied land. There is no solution until that happens. Just like apartheid South Africa was dismantled, Israel has to face the same fate or forever be locked into warfare and oppressing Palestinians.

Isn't that exactly the view of reality that the Israeli right wing holds? They would agree that the choices are either dismantling the state of Israel, or eternal warfare. Since they don't want to dismantle the state of Israel, they elect for eternal warfare. It's funny how on some questions, the most extreme people on both sides agree on the answer. Hamas and the Israeli right wing both agree that the only viable so…

No. The Israeli right wing is trying (and succeeding at) making all of the land between the river and the sea exclusive property of the Jewish people. A quick glance at how the borders have evolved since 1948 makes this evident.

Most Palestinians (and thankfully also a good number of Israeli citizens) want a pluralistic solution, without checkpoints and borders, with equal rights and equal representation for all.

A two-state solution was possible 20 years ago, but with the current settlements in the West Bank with 450k or so Settlers and Gaza's total dependence on Israel for water, internet, electricity and many other of life's necessities, all paths towards a two-state solution have been severed.

Now that Gaza has been bombed and bulldozed what possibility is there for a Palestinian state? All records have been destroyed. The courts are gone. The universities are gone. It's all gone.

Israel will accept neither a one-state or two-state solution. By systematically destroying everything Palestinian the question resolves itself. That seems to be the strategy. And if we can take Israeli politicians at their word, this seems to have been the strategy for the past 20 years at least.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#572

Post by golergka »

hypeit wrote: post #477
pgeorgi wrote: post #474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All correct and yet, what should happen? Israel stops their campaign. And then? Spend tons of money on iron dome to shoot down the rockets and hope that Hamas won't manage to conduct another massacre, even if "only" half the scope of October 7? This mess features not one but two parties who currently reject the concept of a cease fire.

Israel must face the reality that is an apartheid state that exists on occupied land. There is no solution until that happens. Just like apartheid South Africa was dismantled, Israel has to face the same fate or forever be locked into warfare and oppressing Palestinians.

[flagged]

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#573

Post by svara »

RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #479
locallost wrote: post #466

My views on the situation aside, the clearest I saw anyone communicate the issues from a global angle was the former French prime minister Dominique de Villepin Translated here: https://twitter.com/RnaudBertrand/status/1718201487132885246 Viewed from the angle of the West, I think the message it needs to avoid isolating itself from the world is very unusual for Western media and important. Quote: "Westerners must ope…

> The law of retaliation is a never-ending cycle How many wars have the US and Japan fought after WWII? Or France and Germany after WWII? How many wars have the US Government and Native Americans fought after 1900? Sometimes a clear, overwhelming victory ends cycles of violence.

That France and Germany are now good neighbors is a miracle.

It's possible because wise humans on both sides realized that the law of retaliation would cause a never ending cycle.

I worry that this sort of wisdom might be in short supply these days.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#574

Post by eej71 »

locallost wrote: post #546
nemo44x wrote: post #511

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The law of retaliation is a never-ending cycle. Well, there are ways to end it. Historically there have been thousands of cyclical conflicts that eventually ended without a diplomatic solution.

In this situation I disagree. The world is overwhelmingly pro Palestine, and the Arab world obviously. They will not go away. Israel will not go away either.

They don't have to go away.

But, I think its reasonable to assert that the Arab world desperately needs to become more secularized. Most of the Arab world is deeply anti-semitic, deeply tribal (even amongst themselves), and deeply backwards in their orientation to what makes a free society possible.

In that sense, the palestinians need a big cultural change.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#575

Post by dang »

zmgsabst wrote: post #403

[flagged]

You've been breaking the site guidelines badly in this thread and your comments are very much not in the intended spirit, as I tried to explain it at the top. Please stop posting like this. (In case anyone is worried: yes, the exact same thing applies to the commenters you disagree with.)

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39148089.

Edit: it turns out we've had to ask you this many times before:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38504415 (Dec 2023)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38268054 (Nov 2023)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36792189 (July 2023)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34191073 (Dec 2022)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34191063 (Dec 2022)

If this keeps up, we'll end up having to ban your account. (In case anyone is worried: yes, that this would work exactly the same way even if you were arguing for the opposite position.) We're not interested in enforcing views on this or any other divisive topic; only in protecting this site for its intended purpose.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#576

Post by ajb »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #564
megous wrote: post #408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Notably also voted against telling Israel to follow the raw key prohibitions of Genocide convention as written in the convention, something Israel agreed to in the past. Curious. Also voted against asking Israel to preserve evidence of the crimes. Interesting perspective for a former judge.

> Interesting perspective for a former judge Do you have a link to Barak’s dissent on those questions?

https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192...

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#577

Post by JumpCrisscross »

thsksbd wrote: post #524
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #505

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ICJ punted Yes. But this isn’t the final ruling. South Africa asked for something analogous to a preliminary injunction. The ICJ declined to order a preliminary ceasefire. Instead, the case will be tried as usual.

Which will take years that the Palestinians do not have

> take years that the Palestinians do not have

Sure. I don’t think the ICJ was envisioned as an incapacitating body. Instead its existence is a deterrent. A venue for retribution and possibly even restitution.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#578

Post by golergka »

smoothjazz wrote: post #66
shmatt wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except SA specifically asked the court to require a ceasefire, which would have immediate consequences via security council vote and no more munitions landing in Israel. And the judges voted it down This isn't a read between the lines situation, because SA's request was specifically for the court to temporarily rule for a full immediate ceasefire until the larger case could be heard What is interesting here is that b…

Honestly I'm not trying to mis-read the verdict which is why I asked the question. I think all of Israel's strategies to date include the death of Palestinians. Since that's explicitly forbidden with that ruling, how will they continue to fight? Will they just ignore the ruling or change tactics?

[flagged]

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#579

Post by Qem »

nickff wrote: post #107
Animats wrote: post #98

There is another player. China is interested in resolving the Gaza conflict.[1] China's position is that, since the existing world order, the International Court of Justice and the United States, can't resolve this, China should become involved. Chinese container shipping lines COSCO and OOCL have suspended trade with Israel. China has already provided some aid to Gaza.[2] Gaza has a sizable coastline, and China has…

Which other international conflicts has China resolved? The current Chinese state seems to be much better at fostering conflict (I.e. the ongoing Korean War) than resolving it.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/8/21/china-brokered-saud...

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#580

Post by MeImCounting »

munk-a wrote: post #534
MeImCounting wrote: post #523

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US Government continues to employ militarized forces to suppress Indigenous resistance to this very day.

Yea, I think it's pretty odd how little awareness of tribal councils, discussions of self-governance, and resistance from Native Americans there is in the modern America but it feels like the US almost wants to forget it has reservations.

This is intentional. It is a piece of a type of cultural warfare that extends from residential schools to the naming of sports teams. It is the reason the US military uses names of tribal groups for machines of war. It is the reason popular media refers to indigenous people exclusively in the past tense.
Post reply on HN