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ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

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Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#381

Post by envfriendly »

voisin wrote: post #6

Perhaps I am unlearned in this area but I am unclear why the Jewish state, after its people experienced the atrocities of World War II, would act in this manner toward the Palestinians. Can anyone shed light on this? I understand completely the need to rid the world of Hamas terrorists, but in the process they have shown a reckless disregard (to put it mildly) for Palestinian people and their wellbeing.

I think this is rooted in a strangely common misconception that Israelis actually want any of this violence. There's a minority who does, but it's no where near as being as common as on the Palestinian side (around 60-70% of Palestinians support the October 7 massacre)

Urban warfare is an ugly and complicated thing. Many of the Israeli soldiers serving in Gaza are moderates risking their life to defend their home and bring back their people.

When individual cases of reckless disregard are discovered (like in videos shared by Israeli soldiers on groups that get leaked out), those soldiers are disciplined.

But globally, it's just not true that the IDF has complete disregard for Palestinians.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#382

Post by AnimalMuppet »

ajb wrote: post #340
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So you have to realise that Israelis are not thinking normally right now. Even though the Hamas attack has in military terms "culminated", and Israel's military is many times more powerful, their trauma leads them to believe that there is a real, present threat of extinction of the Israeli state and their own nation and families. I think that they think there is a real, persistent threat of Hamas continuing to make…

Here we run into the difficulties of the current media environment. With the Ukraine war, everyone and his dog is offering their tactical and strategic analysis. Here, not so much - just moral statements and talking points. So, while it doesn't seem plausible to me that Hamas would be able to repeat its attack again and again - it managed to create such a large attack because the IDF (or its political masters) f*cked…

Maybe not the US. In fact, probably not the US - the Palestinians would (perhaps rightly) view them as likely biased.

This sounds like the perfect task for a UN peacekeeping force. (Of course, after various "resolutions" over the years, the Israelis may view the UN as biased...)

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#383

Post by dragonwriter »

envfriendly wrote: post #348
throwaway918274 wrote: post #101

Something tells me that Israel will just ignore them.

[flagged]

> Spin this any way you like but The International Court of Justice said there is no genocide

No, it didn't, that’s simply a lie.

It said that the pleadings were sufficient plausible and that conditions present a sufficient risk of irreparable harm to warrant provisional measures against Israel. It didn't say that there is no genocide, and it didn't say that there is a genocide.

The application for provisional measures it ruled on is analogous in the US system to a preliminary injunction, it enables the court to order measures judged necessary to prevent irreparable harm while a case is pending on the merits, and is not a ruling on the merits.

The case continues on the merits, which it would not if the court were already able to determine that no genocide took place. (And it wouldn't, in that case, order provisional measures.)

> and didn't demand a ceasefire or that Israel ends the war

This, OTOH, is true; the ICJ did not include in its provisional measures against Israel a demand for Israel to cease all military operations.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#384

Post by runarberg »

slibhb wrote: post #278
throwaway421967 wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

- Israel's own numbers say "2 civilians killed for every one militant"[1], that's 66% - 766 / 1200 = 63.8% Of course, the numbers claimed by other NGOs / UN make it worse. But Israel's numbers are sufficient to make that claim. [1] - https://edition.cnn.com/2023/12/05/middleeast/israel-hamas-m...

Hamas can't go toe-to-toe with the IDF. They are hiding in tunnels and among civilians, so these ratios aren't surprising. To some extent, you can't blame Hamas for these tactics. They would quickly lose a conventional war. At the same time, if you have zero chance of winning a military victory, perhaps you shouldn't use violence to pursue your political goals...

Then they shouldn’t. That’s the simple answer of it. If they want to get rid of Hamas they will need to find another way. This level of civilian casualty is unacceptable. And as proven by the ICJ decision, it is not accepted.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#385

Post by cachvico »

yosefk wrote: post #368
shmatt wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Barak is no fan of the current Israeli government. And they often attacked him publicly and organized demonstrations around his home. They truly sent the best international law expert the country has to offer

Not exactly. They sent the guy who controls the local judiciary because not doing so would be impossible due to his immense political power. The Israeli judiciary is unique in nominating itself and having given itself the power to cancel any law or demand any changes to laws/policy on any arbitrary basis; since this state of affairs is backed up by a sufficient number of powerful institutions, it is effectively impos…

Wasn't that struck down? https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/1/1/israels-supreme-cour...

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#386

Post by Beefin »

biorach wrote: post #328
drc500free wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's worth noting that system does not apply to 2 million Israeli Arabs (nearly all of whom self-identify as "Palestinian" from an ethnic/national perspective) of the exact same race as the Palestinians in the occupied territories. The overt driver of the system - and the one that is agreed to across the whole Jewish-Israeli population - is the security issue of a Palestinian population that has held since 1948 that…

> Israel shows every day that they are willing and able to live closely with the Palestinians who accept their right to exist and aren't trying to murder their families, without using apartheid-like systems of control This is very much not the case in the West Bank where expropriation and colonisation of Palestinian land by Israeli settlers continue, under the watchful eye of the Israeli army. The Israeli state has d…

West Bank settlers are overtly funded by right-wing christian evangelists from the U.S.

The Likud turns a blind eye because its basically a free military. Moreover, it provides a military buffer between Israel's mainland population and much of the radicalized West Bank population.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#387

Post by delecti »

SomeoneFromCA wrote: post #307
bawolff wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> > The court ruled that Israel must do all it can to prevent genocide, including refraining from killing Palestinians or causing harm to them > Sounds like a ceasefire to me. How else would they do this? Definitely not with any of the military tactics Israel is currently using. Reading the actual icj ruling it seems like it only forbid it when done with genocidial intent. The court did not forbid collateral damage.…

The ruling is so politically ambiguous, so israel will probably be digesting it for awhile. Perhaps lowering the military activities.

That seems optimistic. It's not like they haven't already been made aware of their own activities by this point.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#388

Post by dragonwriter »

ajb wrote: post #36

The actual rulings can be found at https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192... and a summary is: https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192... Dissents etc can be found in the case page: https://www.icj-cij.org/case/192 - in particular the opinion of Judge Aharon Barak, the Israeli ad-hoc Judge (a peculiarity of the ICJ is that each side gets to add a judge, but it doesn't have m…

> a peculiarity of the ICJ is that each side gets to add a judge, but it doesn't have much effect since there are 17 other judges

There are 15 ICJ judges, plus the two ad hoc judges appointed by the parties.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#389

Post by jjcon »

glass_saturn wrote: post #377

Respectfully, would you have made the same comment about 'finding a place in your heart for the humanity of the other' if we lived during the holocaust, where 'one side' was being maimed and killed by the other, more powerful side? Would you have made the same comment if we were talking about apartheid in South Africa? How about if we were talking about how slavery ought to be stopped prior to 1865? Should we _always…

[flagged]

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#390

Post by Beefin »

The_Colonel wrote: post #344
drc500free wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's worth noting that system does not apply to 2 million Israeli Arabs (nearly all of whom self-identify as "Palestinian" from an ethnic/national perspective) of the exact same race as the Palestinians in the occupied territories. The overt driver of the system - and the one that is agreed to across the whole Jewish-Israeli population - is the security issue of a Palestinian population that has held since 1948 that…

> is the security issue of a Palestinian population that has held since 1948 that they are still at war with Israel, will never accept a Jewish state in the region Will Israelis accept a sovereign Palestinian state in the region? A clear NO. Even the 1990s / 2000s two-state solutions were never meant from Israeli side as recognizing full sovereignty of Palestine - it was meant to be more like an Israeli protectorate…

[flagged]
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