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ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

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Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#291

Post by throw__away7391 »

surume wrote: post #263

Hi All, I am a combat soldier and commander in the IDF currently fighting in Gaza. We are not committing any genocide. The give away for Genocide is that there are mass graves, which in Gaza there are not. Yes there is collateral damage because Hamas uses civilians as human shields, so we have no choice but to kill them too, but we do not specifically target them. We risk ourselves and our soldiers to ensure that the…

In general when there is an accusation of genocide, is a statement of denial from a soldier of the accused side considered good evidence?

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#292

Post by masom »

surume wrote: post #263

Hi All, I am a combat soldier and commander in the IDF currently fighting in Gaza. We are not committing any genocide. The give away for Genocide is that there are mass graves, which in Gaza there are not. Yes there is collateral damage because Hamas uses civilians as human shields, so we have no choice but to kill them too, but we do not specifically target them. We risk ourselves and our soldiers to ensure that the…

> Yes there is collateral damage because Hamas uses civilians as human shields, so we have no choice but to kill them too, but we do not specifically target them.

> we have no choice but to kill them too, but we do not specifically target them

> we have no choice but to kill them too

bruh...

Those are war crimes according to the UN

https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/war-crimes.shtml

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#293

Post by tomp »

surume wrote: post #263

Hi All, I am a combat soldier and commander in the IDF currently fighting in Gaza. We are not committing any genocide. The give away for Genocide is that there are mass graves, which in Gaza there are not. Yes there is collateral damage because Hamas uses civilians as human shields, so we have no choice but to kill them too, but we do not specifically target them. We risk ourselves and our soldiers to ensure that the…

Hi there, I personally admire the work you do, I fully support Israel in it's war against evil, I hope you eradicate Hamas (ideally they would all surrender, but that's unlikely, so the other option is they get killed) as soon as you can. If you doubt any of these words, check out my tweets/likes (@tomprimozic)

However, there's 3 "contentious" points that I want to ask (my go-to Jewish (& very pro-Israel) close friend is currently very far away and has his own issues - not that you don't, but since you posted here...)

1. What's your comment on "Hamas headquarters below Al Shifa hospital"?

2. Why do IDF soldiers shoot (and post) videos of them "mocking"/"disrespecting" Palestinian homes/mosques/schools?

3. What's the steelman argument of why Israel is "occupying" the West Bank? The best I can come up with is "they didn't occupy Gaza and look what happened", but (a) that wasn't known before Oct7, and (b) they would have IMO gained a lot of goodwill abroad if they had given it more autonomy...

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#295

Post by SomeoneFromCA »

slibhb wrote: post #278
throwaway421967 wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

- Israel's own numbers say "2 civilians killed for every one militant"[1], that's 66% - 766 / 1200 = 63.8% Of course, the numbers claimed by other NGOs / UN make it worse. But Israel's numbers are sufficient to make that claim. [1] - https://edition.cnn.com/2023/12/05/middleeast/israel-hamas-m...

Hamas can't go toe-to-toe with the IDF. They are hiding in tunnels and among civilians, so these ratios aren't surprising. To some extent, you can't blame Hamas for these tactics. They would quickly lose a conventional war. At the same time, if you have zero chance of winning a military victory, perhaps you shouldn't use violence to pursue your political goals...

Yes right, if israel is unable to fight conventional war, without massive disproportional amount of civil casualties, they should not probably engage in one.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#296

Post by krainboltgreene »

nradov wrote: post #214
throwaway260124 wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

The civilian death toll in Gaza has been tragically high but there hasn't been any independent verification. Regardless of what's on Wikipedia, we can't trust specific numbers.

The state of israel agrees with and trust sthe numbers coming from Gaza: https://www.newarab.com/news/israeli-intel-confirms-gaza-hea...

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#297

Post by iuohjiuohuihiu »

throw__away7391 wrote: post #291
surume wrote: post #263

Hi All, I am a combat soldier and commander in the IDF currently fighting in Gaza. We are not committing any genocide. The give away for Genocide is that there are mass graves, which in Gaza there are not. Yes there is collateral damage because Hamas uses civilians as human shields, so we have no choice but to kill them too, but we do not specifically target them. We risk ourselves and our soldiers to ensure that the…

In general when there is an accusation of genocide, is a statement of denial from a soldier of the accused side considered good evidence?

[dead]

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#298

Post by nashashmi »

slibhb wrote: post #278
throwaway421967 wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

- Israel's own numbers say "2 civilians killed for every one militant"[1], that's 66% - 766 / 1200 = 63.8% Of course, the numbers claimed by other NGOs / UN make it worse. But Israel's numbers are sufficient to make that claim. [1] - https://edition.cnn.com/2023/12/05/middleeast/israel-hamas-m...

Hamas can't go toe-to-toe with the IDF. They are hiding in tunnels and among civilians, so these ratios aren't surprising. To some extent, you can't blame Hamas for these tactics. They would quickly lose a conventional war. At the same time, if you have zero chance of winning a military victory, perhaps you shouldn't use violence to pursue your political goals...

[flagged]

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#299

Post by Sporktacular »

vladgur wrote: post #63
tehjoker wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Zionism is an ideology that took inspiration from the British empire. It was intended to be "something colonial" and pre-dated the atrocities of WW2. The fascist atrocities in WW2 can be interpreted as colonial tactics applied to Europeans, after all the British had been doing extremely bloody concentration camps in Africa and starved India during WW2. For some reason, Africa doesn't get the same play. I wonder why.…

Modern-day Zionism to me and many others means that Israel has the right to exist. It does not absolve many, including self-proclaimed Zionists, from criticizing some of Israel policies. On other hand, my interpretation of people who are self-proclaimed anti-Zionists logically flows from above statement that they believe that the present state of Israel DOES NOT have a right to exist. Which implies deportation of ext…

This is a very convenient interpretation. Lots of people acknowledge Israel as having that right without identifying as Zionists. Lots of anti-Zionists are just anti-colonialists.

This argument is used to shutdown legitimate criticism of a multi-generational occupation, land theft and discrimination. Those things are not inherent to being Jewish. So the distinction holds.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#300

Post by krainboltgreene »

blitz_skull wrote: post #282

What's the ICJ's actual ability to enforce this? "Orders" sounds like they have some sort of weight to throw around if Israel doesn't comply, but I'm not familiar with the ICJ or what possible consequences could arise if Israel simply decided it was going to do what it wanted.

None, but what this does is create a rather significant pressure, one of many. If it didn't, you wouldn't see so much defense of Israeli state action.
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