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Fujitsu bugs that sent innocent people to prison were known "from the start"

arstechnica.com

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Re: Fujitsu bugs that sent innocent people to prison were known "from the start"

#141

Post by JohnFen »

PH95VuimJjqBqy wrote: post #87
TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've yet to meet any Christians who don't contradict other Christians, while being 100% convinced their personal beliefs are correct and all those other interpretations are wrong. So I don't think No True Christian is relevant here. Whatever religion the CEO was cosplaying, the bottom line is that she was involved in organising an aggressive criminal cover-up which caused multiple suicides, unlawful jail terms, and b…

> I've yet to meet any Christians who don't contradict other Christians, while being 100% convinced their personal beliefs are correct and all those other interpretations are wrong. Christian means "Christ-like", it's not surprising that different people have different interpretations of what that means. But my experience has been the stronger someone proclaims their christianity, the less trustworthy they are in gen…

Jesus himself said that worship of God is a thing that is private. That those who loudly proclaim or make public displays of their faith are straying from the path.

Re: Fujitsu bugs that sent innocent people to prison were known "from the start"

#142

Post by kelnos »

vladgur wrote: post #5

given how much a prior conviction makes employment difficult here in the US, how would you quantify financial impact not just of the time served, but also the reputational impact it has on your income.

Presumably their record would also get expunged? Not sure how that works in the UK though.

Re: Fujitsu bugs that sent innocent people to prison were known "from the start"

#143

Post by Twirrim »

hermitcrab wrote: post #101
metabagel wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Clearly, there must have been systemic issues at Fujitsu which allowed the accounting software to fail so spectacularly.

Horizons was based on a failed benefits system and it was widely known that the quality of the software team was not good. IIRC it didn't even use ACID transactions, so glitches and power outages could cause big problems. What sort of company would put their Z team on a multi-billion pound contract?

> What sort of company would put their Z team on a multi-billion pound contract?

A company that stands to make significantly larger profits by doing so.

Why pay $$$ on engineers when you can pay $ engineers, and still get a product you can ship to the customer that works to a sufficient degree to satisfy the purchaser?

Re: Fujitsu bugs that sent innocent people to prison were known "from the start"

#144

Post by dessimus »

tomcar288 wrote: post #51

travesty of justice doesn't begin to describe it. there must be something else wrong besides just the software? how could the justice department just blindly trust the software accounting without any other evidence.

There are lots of wrongful convictions here in the US. Some even have DNA edivence clearing them and proving another committing the crime, and the Prosecution will fight that it does not matter, as long as 12 people thought they were guilty, then they are.

Re: Fujitsu bugs that sent innocent people to prison were known "from the start"

#145

Post by amiga386 »

jiggawatts wrote: post #135
thinkingemote wrote: post #58

Things still going on right now: Prosecutions are still going on but are being led by the Crown Prosecution Service (vs. the post office). Fujitsu are continuing to proving the CPS / post office with data that they have been doing for years (and possibly still providing witness statements, I dunno). Subpostmasters still complain about bugs in the horizon software causing balance errors. Subpostmasters still get fined…

This issue has been public knowledge for years. How is this possible!?

The contract to be an SPM makes you liable for all losses, no matter how they are caused, which includes blatant faults of the accounting/ePOS software. It's the ultimate case of moral hazard. Why fix the broken software if it's only some other sucker who's on the hook for it?

Re: Fujitsu bugs that sent innocent people to prison were known "from the start"

#146

Post by pizzafeelsright »

hermitcrab wrote: post #102

I think it was more than 'bugs'. The whole architectural design was inadequate. See Computerphile video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBJm9ZYqL10 (C++ programmer, but not an expert of distributed systems - would be interested to hear from someone that is)

Reconciling and accounting isn't difficult.

Is the intent accuracy? Was money a motive?

I don't know the full story but cooking the books is how you skim.

And once you're dirty, in order to come clean you need to expose everything.

Re: Fujitsu bugs that sent innocent people to prison were known "from the start"

#147

Post by cge »

conductr wrote: post #125
puzzledobserver wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "In 2013, Vennells hired forensic accounting firm Second Sight, headed up by Ron Warmington, to investigate the Horizon software losses. Warmington discovered the system was flawed and faulty, but Vennells was unhappy with Warmington's report and terminated their contract." Inexcusable.

Yes totally but shouldn’t it have been the prosecution that hired forensic accountants in order to, well, prosecute

I get the impression that, no, forensic accountants were not used in the prosecutions, and they instead just relied on the software's accounting. From the bugs described, it seems like forensic accountants legitimately looking at specific cases would have been unable to confidently state that funds were missing.

Re: Fujitsu bugs that sent innocent people to prison were known "from the start"

#148

Post by SuperNinKenDo »

akira2501 wrote: post #99
jocoda wrote: post #57

There is no way to make good the harm inflicted, and I'm skeptical that anyone except, maybe the innocent, are going to be punished. The central villain of this shit show is the Post Office. The history of the project shows that - from initial procurement onwards. Poorly implemented by ICL, a UK company, taken over by Fujitsu as some sort of favour to the UK government. The developers are guilty but this is just anot…

> How do you make something like this right? If only there was a single person ensconced with supreme authority and a duty to protect the realm around.

It seems they shirked any responsibility to the actual governance of the realm decades ago.

Re: Fujitsu bugs that sent innocent people to prison were known "from the start"

#149

Post by amatecha »

marcosdumay wrote: post #80
orbisvicis wrote: post #33

"I [Paul Patterson, co-CEO of Fujitsu's European division] am surprised that that detail was not included in the witness statements given by Fujitsu staff to the Post Office and I have seen some evidence of editing witness statements by others" How does this scandal keep getting worse and worse when the only thing to cover up is a contract for some poorly written software? At this point I'm starting to suspect some u…

It's not the first time I see news about people committing hideous crimes just to cover up some mild offense. It's always surprising, and always feels absurd and impossible, but it just keeps happening. I guess just like comedy and bad suspense movies, crimes always escalate.

Right, like the ppl who murder their partner rather than admit to cheating on them or being way in debt or whatever... So messed up :(

Re: Fujitsu bugs that sent innocent people to prison were known "from the start"

#150

Post by kelnos »

CoastalCoder wrote: post #45
arp242 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have generally found that there's not that much relation between people's stated beliefs and their actual every-day behaviour. By and large, I do think their beliefs are genuine and heart-felt, and that they're not faking them. It's just that it doesn't really influence their daily behaviour all that much. Generally people are motivated by the incentives of the moment, emotion of the moment, and that kind of thing.…

> People often assume that if someone has the "right set of beliefs" (whatever that "right set" is) that they're also a good person. IIUC, there are a few aspects of Christian theology that muddy this issue a bit. I'm probably a bit wrong, so I'd be grateful for any corrections: 1) Christians believe in progressive sanctification. I.e., the Holy Spirit works, over time, to make Christians more like Jesus. So you real…

I feel like that falls under the "no true scotsman"[0] fallacy. Rather than just branding every self-professed Christian a "fake Christian" if they don't actually gradually become a better person throughout their lives, it's probably more reasonable and useful to recognize that people are flawed, and, despite their sincerely-held beliefs and convictions, often still do bad things.

(Of course, magical, invisible spirits that change your personality and values are unlikely to actually exist, so the point is somewhat moot.)

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

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