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Fujitsu bugs that sent innocent people to prison were known "from the start"

arstechnica.com

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Re: Fujitsu bugs that sent innocent people to prison were known "from the start"

#81

Post by puzzledobserver »

puzzledobserver wrote: post #77

The Wikipedia article on Paula Vennells tells me that the Post Office prosecuted 700 subpostmasters between 1999 and 2015 [0]. That works out to about one prosecution every 8 days. I do not know the baseline rate at which postmasters commit fraud or are prosecuted, but isn't one prosecution every 8 days an awfully high number? Shouldn't the Post Office have conducted some sort of internal investigation as soon as the…

> "In 2013, Vennells hired forensic accounting firm Second Sight, headed up by Ron Warmington, to investigate the Horizon software losses. Warmington discovered the system was flawed and faulty, but Vennells was unhappy with Warmington's report and terminated their contract."

Inexcusable.

Re: Fujitsu bugs that sent innocent people to prison were known "from the start"

#82

Post by ACow_Adonis »

BobaFloutist wrote: post #53
CoastalCoder wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People often assume that if someone has the "right set of beliefs" (whatever that "right set" is) that they're also a good person. IIUC, there are a few aspects of Christian theology that muddy this issue a bit. I'm probably a bit wrong, so I'd be grateful for any corrections: 1) Christians believe in progressive sanctification. I.e., the Holy Spirit works, over time, to make Christians more like Jesus. So you real…

>So you really should expect true Christians, on average, to gradually become better people. Only if I accept their beliefs as accurate.

Or even their professions of belief to actually be something approaching truthful.

But there are many incentives, both on a self-deceptive psychology level, and on a societal-wide level, for wanting to be seen as a virtuous and forthright person irrespective of one's actual behaviours or beliefs.

Re: Fujitsu bugs that sent innocent people to prison were known "from the start"

#83

Post by burkaman »

CoastalCoder wrote: post #45
arp242 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have generally found that there's not that much relation between people's stated beliefs and their actual every-day behaviour. By and large, I do think their beliefs are genuine and heart-felt, and that they're not faking them. It's just that it doesn't really influence their daily behaviour all that much. Generally people are motivated by the incentives of the moment, emotion of the moment, and that kind of thing.…

> People often assume that if someone has the "right set of beliefs" (whatever that "right set" is) that they're also a good person. IIUC, there are a few aspects of Christian theology that muddy this issue a bit. I'm probably a bit wrong, so I'd be grateful for any corrections: 1) Christians believe in progressive sanctification. I.e., the Holy Spirit works, over time, to make Christians more like Jesus. So you real…

> you really should expect true Christians, on average, to gradually become better people.

I think you can only expect them to gradually become more Christian, and every Christian defines what that means for themselves. There is no definition of goodness that is shared by all Christians.

Re: Fujitsu bugs that sent innocent people to prison were known "from the start"

#84

Post by alfalfasprout »

helsinkiandrew wrote: post #7

Bugs are inevitable. The real issue is with the post office management that prosecuted people they knew there was a good chance were innocent, withheld evidence, falsified evidence, and harassed journalists investigating. What really bothers me is that the CEO of the Organisation at the time was also a Christian priest/deacon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paula_Vennells > witness statements from Fujitsu staff due to…

In general, as much as we trash on the US judicial system the UK judicial system makes it even harder to have any sort of recourse in a situation like this.

Re: Fujitsu bugs that sent innocent people to prison were known "from the start"

#85

Post by taeric »

arp242 wrote: post #13
helsinkiandrew wrote: post #7

Bugs are inevitable. The real issue is with the post office management that prosecuted people they knew there was a good chance were innocent, withheld evidence, falsified evidence, and harassed journalists investigating. What really bothers me is that the CEO of the Organisation at the time was also a Christian priest/deacon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paula_Vennells > witness statements from Fujitsu staff due to…

I have generally found that there's not that much relation between people's stated beliefs and their actual every-day behaviour. By and large, I do think their beliefs are genuine and heart-felt, and that they're not faking them. It's just that it doesn't really influence their daily behaviour all that much. Generally people are motivated by the incentives of the moment, emotion of the moment, and that kind of thing.…

I've found it is easier than that. If a system is setup so that professing a belief will get someone a benefit, then you will find a ton of people claiming said belief.

Now, there are also people that will act counter to their beliefs for other reasons. Sometimes for reasons you don't know. But that is, largely, a different thing.

Re: Fujitsu bugs that sent innocent people to prison were known "from the start"

#86

Post by InCityDreams »

CoastalCoder wrote: post #40
helsinkiandrew wrote: post #7

Bugs are inevitable. The real issue is with the post office management that prosecuted people they knew there was a good chance were innocent, withheld evidence, falsified evidence, and harassed journalists investigating. What really bothers me is that the CEO of the Organisation at the time was also a Christian priest/deacon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paula_Vennells > witness statements from Fujitsu staff due to…

> What really bothers me is that the CEO of the Organisation at the time was also a Christian priest/deacon At the risk of making a No True Scotsman argument, it's anyone's guess as to whether or not she truly is a Christian. The only conclusion I can really draw from this is that she apparently acted in a way that's not consistent with Christian ideals.

She acted just like a person with Christian ideals.

Re: Fujitsu bugs that sent innocent people to prison were known "from the start"

#87

Post by PH95VuimJjqBqy »

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #74
CoastalCoder wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People often assume that if someone has the "right set of beliefs" (whatever that "right set" is) that they're also a good person. IIUC, there are a few aspects of Christian theology that muddy this issue a bit. I'm probably a bit wrong, so I'd be grateful for any corrections: 1) Christians believe in progressive sanctification. I.e., the Holy Spirit works, over time, to make Christians more like Jesus. So you real…

I've yet to meet any Christians who don't contradict other Christians, while being 100% convinced their personal beliefs are correct and all those other interpretations are wrong. So I don't think No True Christian is relevant here. Whatever religion the CEO was cosplaying, the bottom line is that she was involved in organising an aggressive criminal cover-up which caused multiple suicides, unlawful jail terms, and b…

> I've yet to meet any Christians who don't contradict other Christians, while being 100% convinced their personal beliefs are correct and all those other interpretations are wrong.

Christian means "Christ-like", it's not surprising that different people have different interpretations of what that means.

But my experience has been the stronger someone proclaims their christianity, the less trustworthy they are in general.

That may seem paradoxical, but consider that I'm not christian which means they feel more justified in treating me as an out-group.

The most die-hard christian I've ever met once got into a fist fight with one of his tenants for being late on the rent. He also, at one point, climbed onto his roof with a compound bow every night for several weeks because some thieves stole a generator and he wanted to catch them coming back.

He also one time told me this story about he was doing a job (he had a lawn care business) and this group of mexicans just randomly attacked and beat the crap out of him. No, I didn't believe the ass-whooping was undeserved.

Re: Fujitsu bugs that sent innocent people to prison were known "from the start"

#88

Post by csan »

yieldcrv wrote: post #47

The real question is who is this happening to now? Its like you go to a prison and everyone says "I'm innocent" and the officer sarcastically dismisses them saying "you and everyone else", the irony being..... that's plausible?

More than plausible; it's happening again right now within the UK justice system itself - https://csan149.substack.com/p/justice-at-risk

Re: Fujitsu bugs that sent innocent people to prison were known "from the start"

#89

Post by okokisay »

ExoticPearTree wrote: post #25
helsinkiandrew wrote: post #7

Bugs are inevitable. The real issue is with the post office management that prosecuted people they knew there was a good chance were innocent, withheld evidence, falsified evidence, and harassed journalists investigating. What really bothers me is that the CEO of the Organisation at the time was also a Christian priest/deacon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paula_Vennells > witness statements from Fujitsu staff due to…

Seriously now, with all this information now available, shouldn't all the people that lied and rewrote statements be prosecuted for perjury?

This should be the case, and as sibling comments notes, 2 of them are being investigated.

Unfortunately though, police forces around the world are not tasked with solving and prosecuting cases like this, which involve at least, extreme malfeasance, and more likely, malice with the goal of protecting oneself within X public/private institute they have a position in. This is a massively high profile case, so it will get some attention.

Instead the task is for the police is increasingly to mediate minor interpersonal disputes between individuals (easy wins) and ignore anything bigger and more complicated.

Re: Fujitsu bugs that sent innocent people to prison were known "from the start"

#90

Post by PH95VuimJjqBqy »

smcin wrote: post #65
RangerScience wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Related, started realizing that "being a principled person" doesn't really mean "having (stated) principles", it means belief that you can (and should ) have principles that you're trying to apply consistently and continuously. Lots of people have principles. Not so many people are principled.

Perhaps, but if they're unstated, what prevents you revising your principles after the fact, to fit your actions? Anyway the UK Fujitsu/Postmaster scandal is about a huge chain of dishonest human behavior, not bugs in software.

> Perhaps, but if they're unstated, what prevents you revising your principles after the fact, to fit your actions?

then you're not a principled person, that's why actions speak louder than words.

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